|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
 Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:54 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Just be aware that Korean experience is not always a plus in KSA. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Chinaski
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
Can you elaborate on that please.
Interestingly, all of the people on the wages that I mentioned have extensive Korean experience. At least 5-15 years each. And for 2 out of the 4...Korea was their last place of employment.
And I am just having fun with you, but serious question. You do know that there is some very good money on offer in Saudi don't you? 
[The best that I know of are all oil/energy/defense...and not foundations...although I have seen some very good wages on offer in both Qatar and the UAE...for however they may last. $83,000 USD to $100,000 USD although I don't know if the first one mentioned includes accommodations and flights, etc, or it's built in. Both of those are foundations programs as well...]
And as an aside, I have heard on the board that Saudi experience is not always a plus in places like the UAE.
Is that true on your opinion?
Thanks,
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 9:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
Time spent in KSA is a negative when applying for jobs everywhere outside KSA. I have known several serious employers in KSA who would discard any CVs that show Korean experience. I was one of those when I had the task of scrutinising new applications. So was ELS. Some recruiters at BAe felt the same way about Korean experience on EFLers CVs.
When I returned to KSA in 1996 I was looking to spend the remainder of my teaching life there and that came to be. I retired in 2011. I have other concerns now and will never again enter an EFL classroom. Alhamdulillah !
As for salaries in KSA, I suggest that you check what is included in the package. If you have to pay for accommodation, flights and health insurance, you will be forking out quite a chunk. US$7,000 a month might sound a lot but what are you going to pay for housing, transportation, medical and all the rest ?
Last edited by scot47 on Mon May 05, 2014 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
|
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Chinaski, I think you've got the right attitude. Try to do your job as best you can regardless of whatever miasma may be around you, and expect to be paid well for it. Just living here should command more than 40,000.
Also, not a good idea to be much rattled by those whose arguments seem to always vindicate an estimation of their own big important selves.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chinaski
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 54
|
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| scot47 wrote: |
| Time spent in KSA is a negative when applying for jobs everywhere outside KSA. I have known several serious employers in KSA who would discard any CVs that show Korean experience. I was one of those when I had the task of scrutinising new applications. So was ELS. Some recruiters at BAe felt the same way about Korean experience on EFLers CVs. |
I can totally understand any negative impression.
Many in Korea are young and have no brains. Some are twisted. Most, no matter their predilections, are NOT real teachers.
The fact is that, outside of international schools, teachers are treated like absolute shit. Those on a salary often have money stolen from them and those on an hourly are...paid by the hour. That means they won't waste a second more than necessary on teaching.
I have found the Middle East to be filled with a fair number of crackpots, but some very serious teachers as well. I am in my element for now.
This place has made me a much better teacher...despite my Korea experience. :p
| Quote: |
| When I returned to KSA in 1996 I was looking to spend the remainder of my teaching life there and that came to be. I retired in 2011. I have other concerns now and will never again enter an EFL classroom. Alhamdulillah ! |
And best wishes for you. I bet you have seen a few things and respect you for it. Thank you for your insights...
| Quote: |
| As for salaries in KSA, I suggest that you check what is included in the package. If you have to pay for accommodation, flights and health insurance, you will be forking out quite a chunk. US$7,000 a month might sound a lot but what are you going to pay for housing, transportation, medical and all the rest ? |
I agree that due diligence is in order.
Of my friends, one is on 75k USD plus housing, another 90 all in, the other on 90 plus all benefits on top, and the last on 108+ USD all in.
These are people who have been in the game or are seriously committed.
I feel that I am at their level and am very certain that I will get there.
I understand why that certainty may "annoy" some people, but my gain is not their loss. And if they can cut a big fat check...then I will never hate on them..
rollingk wrote:
| Quote: |
Chinaski, I think you've got the right attitude. Try to do your job as best you can regardless of whatever miasma may be around you, and expect to be paid well for it. Just living here should command more than 40,000. |
Thank you, and I agree.
I posted a long time ago and wanted to get an idea of the upper tier that I can be at. I thought it very amusing when so many started telling me that I can only hope to make.... 30% less than I was already on.
*chuckle*
Give me a break right. That just tells me that they either don't know the score (worse than me  ) or seriously underestimate (or know) their own potential.
I don't buy it.
And we have real "academics" talking down to foundations programs teachers here.
For one, I would never talk down to foundations teachers here. They teach English and all manner of things. I would consider some of them "life coaches" of sorts, and how much is it worth to change a life.
[And for those who disagree, you have not seen some of the programs I have seen...or perhaps have not drank the kool aid. ]
I would also not ever seek to downgrade academic staff...but have met enough drunks who can't teach their nine hours per week worth shit to know that their isn't only one "right answer", or to definitively state that one type of teacher is worth more than another.
A person who is competent and determined can usually extract what the market will bear. And that is their worth in dollars and cents. Beyond that, they are worth exactly as much as they feel they are. I have seen many great contributions by people who are not getting very well rewarded in the monetary sense...
| Quote: |
| Also, not a good idea to be much rattled by those whose arguments seem to always vindicate an estimation of their own big important selves. |
I have never strayed from straight facts (or opinions) here and challenge anyone to tell me that I am "wrong".
If they feel my opinion is wrong...so be it...but if they tell me that teachers can only make X amount when me and many others are making much more...then I think they need to start their own thread and I promise to pop on their and answer their questions and ...try to give them a leg up.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:12 pm Post subject: Booz deal |
|
|
| Quote: |
meInst
BTW, Boose[sic] Allen moved the ESLers to a shell company years ago, so you'd be working for the shell company if you went in that direction.
|
So what is Booz (or their shell company) paying these days to someone with similar qualifications to Chinaski's? That is, what is their salary package plus benefits? And how 'bout Raytheon and Northrup? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chinaski wrote: |
| scot47 wrote: |
| Time spent in KSA is a negative when applying for jobs everywhere outside KSA. I have known several serious employers in KSA who would discard any CVs that show Korean experience. I was one of those when I had the task of scrutinising new applications. So was ELS. Some recruiters at BAe felt the same way about Korean experience on EFLers CVs. |
I can totally understand any negative impression.
Many in Korea are young and have no brains. Some are twisted. Most, no matter their predilections, are NOT real teachers.
The fact is that, outside of international schools, teachers are treated like absolute shit. Those on a salary often have money stolen from them and those on an hourly are...paid by the hour. That means they won't waste a second more than necessary on teaching.
I have found the Middle East to be filled with a fair number of crackpots, but some very serious teachers as well. I am in my element for now.
|
I don't know why many people on this forum don't understand that the serious teaching that is expected in the West will quite possibly get you fired in Saudi Arabia. As a teacher in Saudi Arabia you are there for any number of reasons in the eyes of Saudi students. Reason number one being, providing some sort of certificate without a student having to give any amount of thought to the subject or an assignment. What does that mean? Most everybody here knows what that means. Students demand that classes have little more than easy pleasant conversation. Saudi Arabia is full of students who when threatened with having to perform or do the work will start causing conflict within the class and bring most of the students in with them. As individuals Saudi's tend to be weak.
I worked two years in Korea and never experienced anything like what I experienced in Saudi Arabia. Saudi teaching companies steal like crazy. I never saw that in Korea. In Saudi Arabia I work with many teachers who have taught in Thailand as well. When asked who they respected more, the general answers should be a no brainer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had very few negative experiences in KSA - but then I avoided working for contractors and places like Uncle Abdullah's Language Academy !
DIRECT HIRE if you can - and avoid those military gigs !
Last edited by scot47 on Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: Does anyone have current numbers?! |
|
|
There's an old thread on here from seven years ago where our famous loveable curmudgeon himself, scot47, calls Booz Allen "good employers." Why he's now recommending that everyone steer clear of military contractor gigs thus bears explaining.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=55605&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
| Quote: |
Sirens of Cyprus
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:16 pm
Booz Allen is a good employer. Flew me to DC for an interview once...business class! They don't pay as much as Raytheon, but still good pay and benefits. Yeah, if they didn't make it clear that you had to be American male, they should have, especially since they ask you to fill out a long application. I assure you it was an oversight, nothing to do with "American arrogance." . . .
scot47
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:04 pm
I too have heard that Boose Allen are good employers but the wording of their ad displays a certain arrogance or naivete. There is a world outside the USofA.
|
This is another quote from an old thread from seven years ago about Booz Allen.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=58478&highlight=booz
| Quote: |
biffinbridge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: erm..
I spoke to the guy who runs this gig in Jubail a couple of days ago and it sounds really good.(I'm in Jubail now.)Good pay ($45-65 000) , on a western compound, shared car. Only BAe is a better deal out here |
So Booz was paying up to $65K in 2007. My question is whether they are still paying that kind of money now that they are operating under a shell company. Does anyone have the figures?
I also recall an ad from Raytheon that was posted on Dave's in 2005 where the ad explicitly said they were paying $5000 a month and up (or $60K plus per year). Many benefits and perks were also mentioned.
A friend of mine interviewed with Northrup six years ago and they offered him $53K plus benefits including a 401K.
But of course all of this info is dated. Does anyone have the current numbers?! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BajaLaJaula
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Booz Allen....45K to 60K US
RAYRAY.....was 86K...but I suspect highly that they will slash soon...and they have the worst military students in the kingdom.
B3H...around 42K to 44K
SESP in Dammam and Baish offering 72K...students in Dammam were great...not sure about Baish. PM me if you want more info.
Not sure about Aramco...I suspect they are still the best gig in Saudi though.
military jobs still pay more than universities...but the stress of dealing with idiot managers and terrible students will take its toll...and in my opinion it is no longer worth the stress. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Things change. Boose Allen WAS top payer years ago. No longer.
Do not forget that in military contracts you will be working with military types - Saudi and Western. Many of them are not well disposed to pinko long-hair teachers. Many regard the teaching of English to their "clients" as a waste of time and resources. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fledex
Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 342
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Booz deal |
|
|
| bonesleet wrote: |
| Quote: |
meInst
BTW, Boose[sic] Allen moved the ESLers to a shell company years ago, so you'd be working for the shell company if you went in that direction.
|
So what is Booz (or their shell company) paying these days to someone with similar qualifications to Chinaski's? That is, what is their salary package plus benefits? And how 'bout Raytheon and Northrup? |
All three are now paying about what he says he is expecting at a minimum. Vinnell/Grumman a little less, Raytheon/SALT a bit more. Worksite management and students vary in difficulty throughout all of them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| My venom against Boose Allen is engendered by JEALOUSY. Local management in the person of a charming and debonair American wanted to hire me but he could not because (he said) there were rules about only hiring American citizens or residents. Sour Grapes from me ! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BillyBaddusky
Joined: 23 Aug 2014
Posts: 20
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: bait and switch |
|
|
| Basically, the 72+K for some of the military contracts is a bait and switch. When I interviewed for the air defense gig, I was told the salary was about 4K a month with housing, utilities, wifi, a day at the beach club fees (part of the 72K). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:41 pm Post subject: . |
|
|
scot 47 wrote:
| Quote: |
Things change. Boose Allen WAS top payer years ago. No longer.
Do not forget that in military contracts you will be working with military types - Saudi and Western. Many of them are not well disposed to pinko long-hair teachers. Many regard the teaching of English to their "clients" as a waste of time and resources.
|
So true.
scot47 wrote:
| Quote: |
My venom against Boose Allen is engendered by JEALOUSY. Local management in the person of a charming and debonair American wanted to hire me but he could not because (he said) there were rules about only hiring American citizens or residents. Sour Grapes from me !
|
How decent of you to concede this point. Not curmudgeony at all! I have the same sentiments about BAE, who five years ago told me I was unqualified. So I went back home and got an MA TESL only to be told that it was my nationality that was the real disqualifier.
BillyBaddusky wrote:
| Quote: |
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: bait and switch Reply with quote Report Post
Basically, the 72+K for some of the military contracts is a bait and switch. When I interviewed for the air defense gig, I was told the salary was about 4K a month with housing, utilities, wifi, a day at the beach club fees (part of the 72K).
|
I take it you're talking about Raytheon? The same nice guys that did this to one of our colleagues? http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?noframes;read=55572 Palms are welcomed!
fledex wrote:
| Quote: |
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Booz deal Reply with quote Report Post
bonesleet wrote:
Quote:
meInst
BTW, Boose[sic] Allen moved the ESLers to a shell company years ago, so you'd be working for the shell company if you went in that direction.
So what is Booz (or their shell company) paying these days to someone with similar qualifications to Chinaski's? That is, what is their salary package plus benefits? And how 'bout Raytheon and Northrup?
All three are now paying about what he says he is expecting at a minimum. Vinnell/Grumman a little less, Raytheon/SALT a bit more. Worksite management and students vary in difficulty throughout all of them.
|
“About” the $65K plus “bennies” that Chinaski initially said he was aiming for, you mean? Also, which worksite-management-student combo do you consider to be the least worst? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
