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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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 Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| You're making excuses for people who chose to work on something other than a Z visa. If it's unclear whether or not you can work on whatever visa you have then don't work on it. Get a WORK visa. Otherwise you might have the coppers knocking on your door sometime soon and when that happens you're toast. Putting yourself in a bad position unnecessarily, that's irrational. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Wonderingjoesmith:
I think that you're being too apologetic for those who come over on anything other than a Z visa. One cursory look at any Chinese consulate's website spells out what the various visas are used for. Anyone who comes to China before doing the requisite homework is either stupid or a pathological risk-taker. The information about risks involved in skirting the law is out there. There is more discussion about working in China online than ever before. There's no excuse for someone to take an unnecessary risk. There are too many narcissists who think that they are special and above the law. When reality strikes, they whimper and cry about the unfairness of it all.
There's NO excuse for someone not doing his homework. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I hear you guys. I'd feel uncomfortable myself.
Rationally yours,
Joe |
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vikeologist
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I shouldn't have said that people coming here without the Z visa were stupid. It would have been better to say that such a move would be unwise.
You know there are countries where everybody does work without a legal visa, and it's perfectly ok. Argentina for instance.
There was a commonly held belief (maybe an urban myth) that the fine for being caught working illegally (which probably wouldn't get you deported) is less than the administrative cost of applying for a visa.
As it sometimes takes well over a year to get a visa in Argentina, it's hardly worth it anyway.
China however is slightly different from Argentina in its attitude towards foreigners. |
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Banner41
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| I'll second that perhaps stupid is a strong word but defiantly not smart. Not doing your research then crying on the forums because you got caught still garners 0 sympathy from me. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I offered two possibilities: stupidity and a narcissistic tendency of some people to feel as though laws don't pertain to them, that they have a right to do as they please, that they are above meeting formal requirements, etc.. They're the same type who present fake degrees as credentials.
Many criminals are narcissistic, but they're not stupid. They prey upon the knowledge that most people are willing to forgive their transgressions if they are caught. They don't realize that such forgiveness doesn't exist when government bureaucracy and law is involved. No amount of rationalization will get them off. That's when one hears the whining and crying about the unfairness and the lack of clarity of it all.
For further reading, check out the research of George K. Simon, Ph.D:
"Character Disturbance: The Phenomenon of our Age," and "In Sheep's Clothing". Martha Stout, Ph.D wrote a very enlightening book titled" The Sociopath Next Door". These books will open your eyes.
Last edited by Bud Powell on Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
I offered two possibilities: stupidity and a narcissistic tendency of some people to feel as though laws don't pertain to them, that they have a right to do as they please, that they are above meeting formal requirements, etc.. They're the same type who present fake degrees as credentials.
Many criminals are narcissistic, but they're not stupid. They prey upon the knowledge that most people are willing to forgive their transgressions if they are caught. They don't realize that such forgiveness doesn't exist when government bureaucracy and law is involved. No amount of rationalization will get them off. That's when one hears about the whining and crying about the unfairness and the lack of clarity of it all.
For further reading, check out the research of George K. Simon, Ph.D:
"Character Disturbance: The Phenomenon of our Age," and "In Sheep's Clothing". Martha Stout, Ph.D wrote a very enlightening book titled" The Sociopath Next Door". These books will open your eyes. |
That's quite an experience in China; either "stupid" or "criminals" teaching in classrooms. If my colleagues or friends here fell into one of those categories mentioned in the message, I'd be worried even on a legal work permit. Perhaps, I'd deport myself out of the country too. Anyhow, I don't suppose local employers, their management or recruiters fall into the "possibilities" from above? |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
That's quite an experience in China; either "stupid" or "criminals" teaching in classrooms. If my colleagues or friends here fell into one of those categories mentioned in the message, I'd be worried even on a legal work permit. Perhaps, I'd deport myself out of the country too. Anyhow, I don't suppose local employers, their management or recruiters fall into the "possibilities" from above? |
LOL!
I have more experience with FTs who have pushed their luck. I can't really address employers, but I can think of a couple dozen FTs who fit the terms "narcissistic" and "feel as though they are above the law".
I won't tiptoe around the subject. Anyone who comes to work in China illegally either lacks the intelligence to be a teacher or feels that he is above the law (e.g., a criminal). This isn't a game of "blame the victim". Nobody is Shanghai'd and taken to China.
There's enough information on the internet to guide the the newbie to the answers he needs in order to enter China and work legally. Those who fail to seek it out before they arrive fall under one or both categories.
Sorry, no sympathy here. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
That's quite an experience in China; either "stupid" or "criminals" teaching in classrooms. If my colleagues or friends here fell into one of those categories mentioned in the message, I'd be worried even on a legal work permit. Perhaps, I'd deport myself out of the country too. Anyhow, I don't suppose local employers, their management or recruiters fall into the "possibilities" from above? |
LOL!
I have more experience with FTs who have pushed their luck. I can't really address employers, but I can think of a couple dozen FTs who fit the terms "narcissistic" and "feel as though they are above the law".
I won't tiptoe around the subject. Anyone who comes to work in China illegally either lacks the intelligence to be a teacher or feels that he is above the law (e.g., a criminal). This isn't a game of "blame the victim". Nobody is Shanghai'd and taken to China.
There's enough information on the internet to guide the the newbie to the answers he needs in order to enter China and work legally. Those who fail to seek it out before they arrive fall under one or both categories.
Sorry, no sympathy here. |
And if it goes bad, you move to get legal or get out. |
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Juice
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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Fat Chris was right. The Chinese embassy will not give me a visa to go back and study in September at Beida. You are all quick to blame me, but I knew nothing about visas or working in China until after I got there. As strange as it may sound to you, I believed the recruiter Michelle was telling me the truth. She was always sweet and kind to me until the day I confronted her about why other teachers at my school working the same days and hours were making so much more money than me.
What do you think my chances are of getting a refund from Beida? I have an apartment full of stuff and an electric scooter to sell. If anyone is interested send me a PM or see my ad at the Beijinger and I will hook you up with my roommate.
Be careful guys, I was told the crackdown will continue to the end of the month and start up again in September. I was also told that it is now illegal for agents to issue invitation letters. By the way, my total fine was 16,000 yuan, not dollars. I was pissed and rushed the day I last posted and could not find the renminbi symbol on my keypad. I wonder how many of these other people used Michelle as well?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/china-expat-forum-expats-living-china/464018-cftu-confirms-1-600-china-foreign-teachers-deported-2014-so-far.html
http://www.eslwatch.info/china-2/about-the-law-china/12117-1-600-expat-china-foreign-teachers-get-the-boot-in-2014-so-far-recruiters-schools-or-teachers-to-blame.html?hitcount=0
All of you still in China please call Michelle, the *beep* recruiter that caused me to lose half my savings and months of my life with this China fiasco. Her telephone number is 13810420874 and be sure to call her late night or early morning with all your visa questions! And screw the CFTU too! They didn't do squat for me and only sent me this old link and basically said "We warned everyone and if you didn't pay attention that is your problem - not ours.".
http://www.englishpost.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=310
Last edited by Juice on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
Fat Chris was right. The Chinese embassy will not give me a visa to go back and study in September at Beida. You are all quick to blame me, but I knew nothing about visas or working in China until after I got there. As strange as it may sound to you, I believed the recruiter Michelle was telling me the truth. She was always sweet and kind to me until the day I confronted her about why other teachers at my school working the same days and hours were making so much more money than me.
What do you think my chances are of getting a refund from Beida? I have an apartment full of stuff and an electric scooter to sell. If anyone is interested send me a PM or see my ad at the Beijinger and I will hook you up with my roommate.
Be careful guys, I was told the crackdown will continue to the end of the month and start up again in September. I was also told that it is now illegal for agents to issue invitation letters. By the way, my total fine was 16,000 yuan, not dollars. I was pissed and rushed the day I last posted and could not find the renminbi symbol on my keypad. I wonder how many of these other people used Michelle as well?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/china-expat-forum-expats-living-china/464018-cftu-confirms-1-600-china-foreign-teachers-deported-2014-so-far.html
http://www.eslwatch.info/china-2/about-the-law-china/12117-1-600-expat-china-foreign-teachers-get-the-boot-in-2014-so-far-recruiters-schools-or-teachers-to-blame.html?hitcount=0
All of you still in China please call Michelle, the *beep* recruiter that caused me to lose half my savings and months of my life with this China fiasco. Her telephone number is 13810420874 and be sure to call her late night or early morning with all your visa questions! And screw the CFTU too! They didn't do squat for me and only sent me this old link and basically said "We warned everyone and if you didn't pay attention that is your problem - not ours.". |
To be clear there is no foreign teachers union in China. This is one of the problems with a group pretending to be such. They cannot and will not help, but some people will think they can. It is sad. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
| I was also told that it is now illegal for agents to issue invitation letters. |
Agents? You mean recruiters? They have never issued letters of invitation. Did you get your visa to enter China after you submitted a letter of invitation to the Chinese Consulate that was issued to you by a recruiter?
How could not know ANYTHING about visas? How did you learn where to send your paperwork? If you used a courier service, the courier wouldn't even deliver it to the consulate if it wasn't acceptable to the consulate, and if you submitted it in person, your letter of invitation written by anyone other than someone in a provincial office (Is it still the Ministry of Education?) you would have been turned away. |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
I have more experience with FTs who have pushed their luck. I can't really address employers, but I can think of a couple dozen FTs who fit the terms "narcissistic" and "feel as though they are above the law".
I won't tiptoe around the subject. Anyone who comes to work in China illegally either lacks the intelligence to be a teacher or feels that he is above the law (e.g., a criminal). This isn't a game of "blame the victim". Nobody is Shanghai'd and taken to China.
There's enough information on the internet to guide the the newbie to the answers he needs in order to enter China and work legally. Those who fail to seek it out before they arrive fall under one or both categories.
Sorry, no sympathy here. |
So, such a high number of �criminals� and �stupid� foreign teachers to work with do not point to issues elsewhere. How those so inadequate experts have got to their posts ought not to be questioned. Or, perhaps those unprofessional professionals must be blamed for applying for and keeping those jobs. I would not have a problem with the view, if the people that the message refers to were self-employed. Are they truly sponsoring their own work permits?
Just like the post says, we should not walk quietly around this topic on teachers� forums. Every smart individual should see that if unsuitable people were continuously offered the opportunities, issues would be somewhere else. Of course, there�s the demand-supply excuse and if there�s a shortage of teachers hiring requirements go lower, but aren�t employers and recruiters as guilty as those teachers described by the poster? An experience of �a couple dozen FTs�, who are so unfit for the profession, ought to give a clear enough view to see the problem is high up the food chain.
In the end, crackdowns on foreigners are easier than any severe measures against the local schools or companies that know the ropes and that may have connections. Judging a professional foreign teacher, who has opted to work illegally for reasons such as inadequate visa regulations or a poor previous employer's performance, is questionable. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:12 am Post subject: |
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JUICE
| Quote: |
| You are all quick to blame me, but I knew nothing about visas or working in China until after I got there. |
And that's why they are blaming u.... get it?!?!
It's boggles my simple mind as to why some don't investigate anything before such an adventure.
[/i] |
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coldcucumber
Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| Juice wrote: |
| I was also told that it is now illegal for agents to issue invitation letters. |
Agents? You mean recruiters? They have never issued letters of invitation. Did you get your visa to enter China after you submitted a letter of invitation to the Chinese Consulate that was issued to you by a recruiter?
How could not know ANYTHING about visas? How did you learn where to send your paperwork? If you used a courier service, the courier wouldn't even deliver it to the consulate if it wasn't acceptable to the consulate, and if you submitted it in person, your letter of invitation written by anyone other than someone in a provincial office (Is it still the Ministry of Education?) you would have been turned away. |
It isn't always quite that easy mate, some folks take the company on their word, some of us even get burned after doing everything the proper way. On top of that not all provinces are the same, regulations differ from sector to sector. |
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