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Vaxa
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: Schools and Contracts... (Question) |
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So you hear many horror stories about people coming to work in China with the end result being that the school they sign a contract with... Dont actually follow or obey the contract terms and conditions.
So I just want to ask how is this possible?
Surely if someone goes to China with the correct working documents needed and a Z visa and signs a contract with the school they will be employed with, then that school must stick to the contract agreement otherwise are we not able to take action against the school if they do not obey the contract??
Is it usually people illegally working (On F or L visas) that the schools can cheat them on the contract agreement? |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Schools and Contracts... (Question) |
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| Vaxa wrote: |
So you hear many horror stories about people coming to work in China with the end result being that the school they sign a contract with... Dont actually follow or obey the contract terms and conditions.
So I just want to ask how is this possible?
Surely if someone goes to China with the correct working documents needed and a Z visa and signs a contract with the school they will be employed with, then that school must stick to the contract agreement otherwise are we not able to take action against the school if they do not obey the contract??
Is it usually people illegally working (On F or L visas) that the schools can cheat them on the contract agreement? |
How is it possible? Easy. The FT is at a distinct disadvantage. Unless he knows where to complain, speaks the language, and has the wherewithal to pursue the breach, he's scrod. It's that simple.
Schools don't discriminate when they choose to renege on a contract, though it is surely a disadvantage if the FT is not legal. Schools act in their own interests, and if it is in the interest to turn off the air conditioning in an FT's apartment to save money, it'll do so regardless of what the contract says. MY EXPERIENCE is that fully-public institutions are less likely to commit serious breaches of contracts than private concerns, and partially privatized colleges are heaven to work for when they're flush with money, but are Satan's Spawn when enrollment is down. YMMV |
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Vaxa
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I see... I thought that there was some sort of head T.A supervisor, someone who is also foreign and could help you out in these situations.
I can understand someone working illegally not being able to fight the school by going to the law but assumed if you are working legitimately with a Z visa there would be help in these situations.
Its scary to think "Will this happen to me" when I go abroad. |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Vaxa wrote: |
I see... I thought that there was some sort of head T.A supervisor, someone who is also foreign and could help you out in these situations.
I can understand someone working illegally not being able to fight the school by going to the law but assumed if you are working legitimately with a Z visa there would be help in these situations.
Its scary to think "Will this happen to me" when I go abroad. |
Nope. The best thing to do is to ask for the contact details of current / past employees. Then ask them about the employer - though the employer will most likely give you the details of employees who they have treated well or haven't had problems with. But it's about the best thing you can do. Well, if you happen to find an employee past or current independently then that's better.
In recent posts there has been mention of a 'City FAO' (Foreign Affairs Officer). Public employers usually have an FAO who handles all things related to the foreigner - they can really make or break a deal, if you find a good one, tell people about them. I'm not sure if private employers have an FAO or if the same person is also your boss.
Back to the City FAO, I haven't had dealings with them. I didn't even know such a thing existed until about a month ago. When I get back I'll look into it more - though I don't have reason to believe I'll need it, it's always good just to keep options open.
I always say this: Go with the offer that makes you feel the safest. Especially if it's your first job abroad, and especially for China! In the grand scheme of things, a few thousand RMB a month is not going to matter, at least that's how I look at it for your first year. |
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Vaxa
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah I guess that is 1 way of looking at it with the money situation.
They gave me the email address of the head teaching supervisor for foreign expats. He is american and seemed ok but I guess he would say only good things about the school.
When I asked about the visa situation he said "I dont involve myself too deeply with the visa process"
and also said that the main concern is age for them and that if I was over 24 and had a clean CRB it should all go smoothly.
I dont know if this is a good or a bad thing with his reply. He seemed nice enough in other mails we exchanged. |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| When I asked about the visa situation he said "I dont involve myself too deeply with the visa process" |
???
Can he at least confirm that you will have a Z visa? Not having specific info on the bureaucratic process I can understand.
Knowing whether or not the teachers are legally employed doesn't seem to be "too deeply involved". |
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doogsville
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 924
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Vaxa wrote: |
| They gave me the email address of the head teaching supervisor for foreign expats. He is american and seemed ok but I guess he would say only good things about the school. |
Sadly having a foreigner as a 'manager' is no guarantee that your experience will be a happy one. My last jobs 'Vice director of Education' was a foreigner, and his job is basically to implement the whims of his Chinese employer and save as much money as possible that might otherwise go towards the students education or into the teachers pockets (both Chinese and foreign teachers) and direct it into the bosses pockets. I have also heard anecdotal evidence of similar situations in other private schools. It's not uncommon for people in those positions to come to them after teaching in China for some years, and they will do whatever it takes to stay in that position and not have to go back to teaching. They are employed and managed by unscrupulous and greedy bosses and they toe the line.
Getting a good job in China can be a gamble, so you have to be prepared to take the chance. That being said, a lot of the bad experiences people have here are relative to the attitude of the individual. Personally, I don't get too upset about the bureaucracy, poor scheduling, lack of forward thinking and cultural craziness as I used to. It's a fact of life, so I've learned to deal with it and stay sane. I would draw the line at problems regarding money or unacceptable accommodation and being used as a doormat, but so far I've not encountered anything like that I didn't get fixed by putting my foot down.
If and when you come here, have an exit strategy, be open minded but strong willed and confident, and be aware that there is a potentially huge learning curve, and that very little that happens here will be the same as it is in your home country. Many of us have happy and productive lives here, but we've had to work hard to achieve it. China is not the Land of Milk an Honey, but it's not Pit's of Hades either. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:25 am Post subject: |
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This thread gathered in most of the elements you should be looking at.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=91394&highlight=checklist
In summary, get a public uni or vocational gig, max 20 hours pw, Oral English, paid single occupancy on-campus accom, paid winter holiday, plus 10k airfare, Z visa and pre tax salary of 5000-5500RMB per month and you should be OK. |
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thechangling
Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
This thread gathered in most of the elements you should be looking at.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=91394&highlight=checklist
In summary, get a public uni or vocational gig, max 20 hours pw, Oral English, paid single occupancy on-campus accom, paid winter holiday, plus 10k airfare, Z visa and pre tax salary of 5000-5500RMB per month and you should be OK. |
That, and then get a part time side gig at a training centre (and/or privates) at the weekends and/or during the week and you can easily double your income without being too exhausted. Just keep your gob shut about it to everyone though. |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Schools and Contracts... (Question) |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
| Vaxa wrote: |
So you hear many horror stories about people coming to work in China with the end result being that the school they sign a contract with... Dont actually follow or obey the contract terms and conditions.
So I just want to ask how is this possible?
Surely if someone goes to China with the correct working documents needed and a Z visa and signs a contract with the school they will be employed with, then that school must stick to the contract agreement otherwise are we not able to take action against the school if they do not obey the contract??
Is it usually people illegally working (On F or L visas) that the schools can cheat them on the contract agreement? |
How is it possible? Easy. The FT is at a distinct disadvantage. Unless he knows where to complain, speaks the language, and has the wherewithal to pursue the breach, he's scrod. It's that simple.
Schools don't discriminate when they choose to renege on a contract, though it is surely a disadvantage if the FT is not legal. Schools act in their own interests, and if it is in the interest to turn off the air conditioning in an FT's apartment to save money, it'll do so regardless of what the contract says. MY EXPERIENCE is that fully-public institutions are less likely to commit serious breaches of contracts than private concerns, and partially privatized colleges are heaven to work for when they're flush with money, but are Satan's Spawn when enrollment is down. YMMV |
Good post, Bud. You are wise. To top it all off: The legal system usually works against foreigners and protects mainland Chinese.
In a non-legal setting, the locals will usually side against foreigners, quite easily, if the person cheating you tries to frame it as a foreigner against patriotic China.
This one blows my mind : the foreigner is not supposed to be upset when it happens, or else you could get banned. A lot of people have power over foreigners, and all it takes is a few complaints, even if an outright lie, to keep you from having a job or from coming back. If a foreigner were to do that to someone Chinese, there would be hell to pay.
China is culturally friendly. But in a working context, foreigners are dogs. If you do not agree to be happily exploited, then you're probably not wanted. |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Schools and Contracts... (Question) |
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double post.
Last edited by Riff Raff on Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vaxa
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Some great replies really helping me a lot here with my decisions. Appreciate it guys.
Non Sequitur
You say try to get a public school. Is there a reason for this? As the school I have been offered the job at is a private school.
Also what is a vocational gig? |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: |
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A state school is a school - primary, high or tertiary under the control of either the provincial education authorities or the national education admin. It is a not for profit, although gouging teachers is an occasional sideline.
The tertiary vocationals are 3 year associate degree colleges usually associated with a particular industry or vocation. Tourism and Hotel Management are two of these.
'Gig' is an engagement - usually of a band, but I use it as a sideways reference to FTs being expected to perform.
Some well respected Tier One unis started life as vocationals and have expanded and amalgamated over time.
Dalian Maritime U started out as a navigation school. |
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Vaxa
Joined: 03 Jul 2014
Posts: 74
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for that. So do people tend to try and stay away from the private schools when looking at work in China? |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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I'd go with a 'least downside' approach for your first job and that means a state uni or vocational.
A bit concerned that you haven't signed up yet as FAOs will be going on holiday soon.
Best
NS |
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