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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like a spell in the re-education camps might be the only thing for him... |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
| ... and a CELTA |
Did your school verify this by requesting to view the physical document? Up until very recently, a jpg was sufficient proof of credentials and we all know how easy it is to Photoshop your name on someone else's document.
| Spiral78 wrote: |
| Exactly. The whole idea of 'supporting each other' in this industry is silly and useless, in my opinion. |
Not necessarily, Spiral. That's why your use of 'would' intrigued me.
While the ambiguity of 'Situation 2' suggests the new contract terms could not have been all that bad thereby making the blogger conform to our classic stereotype, it's not always the case.
In 2009 I was assistant manager of a new franchise in China where we went through 3 accountants in the span of a few months. As a result, my first payment was delayed by about 2 wks. By contract, salaries are to be paid on the 15th of the following month so I'd worked 2 full months before getting paid. I trusted I'd get paid, had sufficient cash to live on, appreciated the situation, and so didn't protest. In that 2nd month, a new employee had arrived and when told that payment again would be delayed (under our 2nd accountant), he protested, claiming he had expenses to cover back home. Having been working and in country for close to 6 weeks already without pay and then being told to wait longer was sufficient grounds, in my opinion, to support him in his quest. The school tried to pass off the issue claiming they'd need to yet again, hire another accountant so I suggested we tell the school we would no longer show up for classes until payment was made. He agreed. We did. Payment was promptly made. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
| ... and a CELTA |
Did your school verify this by requesting to view the physical document? Up until very recently, a jpg was sufficient proof of credentials and we all know how easy it is to Photoshop your name on someone else's document.
| Spiral78 wrote: |
| Exactly. The whole idea of 'supporting each other' in this industry is silly and useless, in my opinion. |
Not necessarily, Spiral. That's why your use of 'would' intrigued me.
While the ambiguity of 'Situation 2' suggests the new contract terms could not have been all that bad thereby making the blogger conform to our classic stereotype, it's not always the case.
In 2009 I was assistant manager of a new franchise in China where we went through 3 accountants in the span of a few months. As a result, my first payment was delayed by about 2 wks. By contract, salaries are to be paid on the 15th of the following month so I'd worked 2 full months before getting paid. I trusted I'd get paid, had sufficient cash to live on, appreciated the situation, and so didn't protest. In that 2nd month, a new employee had arrived and when told that payment again would be delayed (under our 2nd accountant), he protested, claiming he had expenses to cover back home. Having been working and in country for close to 6 weeks already without pay and then being told to wait longer was sufficient grounds, in my opinion, to support him in his quest. The school tried to pass off the issue claiming they'd need to yet again, hire another accountant so I suggested we tell the school we would no longer show up for classes until payment was made. He agreed. We did. Payment was promptly made. |
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Jerome Baxter
Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Suph, that is just a shocking response about women. I can't believe you've just left that on the internet for all of posterity to see.
I guess I sort of get, you would have had to do some serious logical somersaults to square that peg – everyone getting paid what they're worth despite massive historical and contemporary evidence of pay discrimination – but man, just to be so nasty and dismissive toward half the human population...that is just...wow.
| Quote: |
| I think Spiral is referring to your idea of 'linking up' in protest. |
Long, that may be, but the conversation went roughly like this:
Jerome - Two situations, how would you respond?
Suph - One contradictory response: Unions suck, but workers should stand together like in a union, but unions suck....
Jerome - Is that it? No other suggestions?
Spiral - IT'S BECAUSE IT'S A STUPID IDEA!
Also, Long, thanks for sharing that story. If you wanted to bulk it out a bit, I would really love to host it.
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| Then why, despite the apparent unanimous support for strike action, would 'Big Mouth' bail out for a measly €1 more than the rest would be making? |
Well I'm glad someone read it, but that's basically the point that the blog was making: if we only wait until the crap really hits the fan, we won't have the solidarity and organisation built up to fight the big issues. So, we're better off standing together now – building up that trust on the ground and wider networks in the industry – so people are more likely to stick it out when the going gets tough.
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| The whole idea of 'supporting each other' in this industry is silly and useless, in my opinion. |
Jesus wept.
Again, I ask you to respond to situations 1 and 2.
Your advice is really just to move on?
I don't want to make this personal, but what about having a backbone? What about self-respect? What about fairness and all the time you may have put into the school? What about sticking up for your fellow teachers?
What about concrete evidence about when sticking together has been successful?
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| Offer him training despite the fact that he has the pieces of paper that should prove his competence already? |
Yes, the school hired him, the responsibility is on them.
Y'all are so keen on individual responsibility for workers, why not apply the same logic to bosses? They need to take personal responsibility for their hiring practices. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| MuscatGary wrote: |
| ... and a CELTA |
Did your school verify this by requesting to view the physical document? Up until very recently, a jpg was sufficient proof of credentials and we all know how easy it is to Photoshop your name on someone else's document.
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Yes. the documents had been legally apostilled and attestated. Standard practice in the ME. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Jerome Baxter wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Offer him training despite the fact that he has the pieces of paper that should prove his competence already? |
Yes, the school hired him, the responsibility is on them. |
Ok, so during what would have needed to be an extensive period of training in the English language and in classroom techniques he would have been effectively useless so another teacher would have to be employed. Should he continue to be paid as a teacher when he's now a trainee? Should the College pay for the cost of this training? Remember I stated this is a non-profit organization, any money spent on him would have to come out of the general budget, so less for books etc.
I think the major problem was his references, there are 2 reasons for giving a good reference. One is because it's true and deserved, the second is to get rid of a liability. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerome Baxter wrote: |
| I guess I sort of get, you would have had to do some serious logical somersaults to square that peg – everyone getting paid what they're worth despite massive historical and contemporary evidence of pay discrimination – but man, just to be so nasty and dismissive toward half the human population...that is just...wow. |
I don't think suphanburi's post was "nasty and dismissive" toward women. I think it was treating everyone equally -- women, men, or whoever, if they are not satisfied with the salary that is being offered, then they shouldn't take the job. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
Yes. the documents had been legally apostilled and attestated. Standard practice in the ME. |
But that 'standard practice' has its flaws.
Did the lawyer who notarized my degree for $20 (and many previously) even care to see official transcripts? No. His stamp on the photocopy was the only thing the Dept of Foreign Affairs wanted to see when they added theirs, and in turn, those 2 official stamps were all the embassy needed to add theirs. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| MuscatGary wrote: |
Yes. the documents had been legally apostilled and attestated. Standard practice in the ME. |
But that 'standard practice' has its flaws.
Did the lawyer who notarized my degree for $20 (and many previously) even care to see official transcripts? No. His stamp on the photocopy was the only thing the Dept of Foreign Affairs wanted to see when they added theirs, and in turn, those 2 official stamps were all the embassy needed to add theirs. |
In the UK the verification is done by a Government office who send the degree copy to the University (The British Council does this for Brits abroad) then it goes to the Embassy for attestating. This is what happened with the teacher I referred to. |
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HLJHLJ
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 1218
Location: Ecuador
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
In the UK the verification is done by a Government office who send the degree copy to the University (The British Council does this for Brits abroad) then it goes to the Embassy for attestating. This is what happened with the teacher I referred to. |
It depends what you have certified and how you do it. I had copies of my degree certs notarised and apostilled in the UK. All the apostille says is that the person who notarised them is authorised to do so as a registered notary. The notary stamp just says that the notary confirms these are genuine and accurate copies of the original documents that were presented to him. No-one ever actually checked that the original documents were authentic.
Once they have the apostille on them, copies are treated the same as the originals. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| MuscatGary wrote: |
In the UK the verification is done by a Government office who send the degree copy to the University (The British Council does this for Brits abroad) then it goes to the Embassy for attestating. This is what happened with the teacher I referred to. |
...and the CELTA?
Now I know it's possible for some to pass the CELTA under an altered stated of consciousness, call it 'please-the-teacher' mode, whereby after the course, they could pass for an uncertified newby on day one: they show no appreciation or awareness of even the most fundamental aspects of language teaching. I'm just checking. |
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Jerome Baxter
Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:09 am Post subject: |
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rtm -
| Quote: |
| I don't think suphanburi's post was "nasty and dismissive" toward women. I think it was treating everyone equally -- women, men, or whoever, if they are not satisfied with the salary that is being offered, then they shouldn't take the job. |
I expect more from you.
How anyone in the world could read this:
| Quote: |
| If women are willing to work for less then so be it. |
And not think it's nasty and dismissive is beyond me. Not to mention it ignores generations of ingrained institutional sexism in just about the entire global economy.
Muscat -
I stand by what I said: you hire someone, the responsibility is on the employer to ensure they're trained up properly for the job.
Not to mention that what's far more likely is not underqualified people getting hired, but favoritism and victimization based on levels of sycophantism or resistance.
And that's what we've focused on in the past and would focus on in the future. |
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Jerome Baxter
Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:17 am Post subject: |
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So, getting back to the point, one of the main arguments on this thread is basically:
"Do your research beforehand. If you pick the wrong school, it's your own fault. In the event that things turn out crappy, or management changes your contract, don't ever bother fighting back collectively. The imperative is on you, as an individual, to move on."
Since this thread seems to love a what if question (while ignoring real-life examples) let me drop some what if questions of my own:
What if it's a new company and you can't research them?
What if they lie about the conditions?
What if the management changes (either a new direct manager or the school is bought out)?
What if you get transferred to a different center in the same chain but that has different policies?
What if you find out you're on a worse contract than other members of staff?
What if you find out all the women are paid less than the men?
What if management ignore their own grievance or disciplinary procedures? What if there aren't any?
What if the law changes and leaves you in a more vulnerable position?
What if you're locked into a 12 month lease and you can't leave because jobs are scarce?
What if it's your first job and you know how difficult it is get another teaching job without 12 months under your belt?
What if you have really good friends/students/classes at that school and you don't want to leave?
In all these instances is your response still just to move on and get over it?
Last edited by Jerome Baxter on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:35 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jerome Baxter
Joined: 27 May 2014
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Jerome Baxter wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The whole idea of 'supporting each other' in this industry is silly and useless, in my opinion. |
Jesus wept.
Again, I ask you to respond to situations 1 and 2.
Your advice is really just to move on?
I don't want to make this personal, but what about having a backbone? What about self-respect? What about fairness and all the time you may have put into the school? What about sticking up for your fellow teachers?
What about concrete evidence about when sticking together has been successful. |
Spiral, I'd really appreciate a response to this.
I'm re-posting the "situations" below for your reference:
| Quote: |
Situation 1:
ESL workers at a public adult education facility in an Anglophone country are having their contracts gutted, being made redundant, and having their hours cut. These were previously really good public sector jobs: full time with benefits, pay, and union recognition.
However, due to government cuts, their department is facing a 10% cut year on year on year. And the teachers conditions are suffering massively because of it. In fact, because of the cuts, new teachers are on half the salaries of older staff, regardless of qualifications, experience, etc.
This is happening in my city, now, as we speak.
situation 2:
Multinational language school chain, this happening at a particular franchise of that chain in a southern European country.
While the job had previously been pretty crap, it's about to be made far more precarious. Workers are to be made “freelance” and face something like a 20% pay cut. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| HLJHLJ wrote: |
| MuscatGary wrote: |
In the UK the verification is done by a Government office who send the degree copy to the University (The British Council does this for Brits abroad) then it goes to the Embassy for attestating. This is what happened with the teacher I referred to. |
It depends what you have certified and how you do it. I had copies of my degree certs notarised and apostilled in the UK. All the apostille says is that the person who notarised them is authorised to do so as a registered notary. The notary stamp just says that the notary confirms these are genuine and accurate copies of the original documents that were presented to him. No-one ever actually checked that the original documents were authentic.
Once they have the apostille on them, copies are treated the same as the originals. |
True, but the apostille is applied by the Foreign Office in Milton Keynes who DO check with the University. The notary just swears that the copy is a copy of an original document that they have seen, they do not swear to the authenticity of the original. Maybe your notary did all of this for you, probably at a substantial cost? |
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