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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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 Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Some employers pay more than the minimum required by law. |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| It would be pointless to argue with them before you even stat working... |
No, that's more like a stupid tactic to use. Bringing an error to the employer's attention and giving them the opportunity to correct it (or not) in no way means arguing with them about it. A little diplomacy goes a long way. Besides, if the OP feels it's important to him/her, there's no harm in addressing it. |
Oh you find it "stupid", eh? Nice.. very assertive woman. Someone doesn't even set his foot in KSA/any country yet, but pointing out the error of the employer is a smart thing to do?so that he can make a statement " Look, I am from.........., I am smarter than you guys, you can't rip me off.. etc? It is either you take it leave it..I doubt the employer is mistakenly stating 1/2 month or 1/3 or 20% of the salary as ESB. The employer knows it and they want to set this rate, just by cheating the labor law or just the way it works for them etc. Again , it is something one will receive at the end of his contract ( 1 or 20 years) and I consider this as a small matter. Negotiating the monthly salary by marketing his past teaching experience and /or related qualification, would make more sense than talking about 1500 or 2000 Riyals oer year difference that he might get at the end of next (2-3) year etc. My point is focusing on the most important item of the contract, not the small stuff. Some employers pay , actually, according to the labor law, ESB is something one can receive when s/he finally makes a final exit of his 1 or 25 years of his contract term, as some keep renewing the contract and they do not leave KSA for years, except a short annual leave of 1/2 or one month. Major or minor, it is up to the individual.. It would be like negotiating to pen down " who gets the dog?" in pre-nup contract before you apply for a marriage license. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Dear SheikMilkShake.
Nomad's right; you're wrong. Get over it.
Regards,
John |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with John and NS. Plus what we have here is a lack of reading ability from the milkshake. NS was actually partially agreeing with you that it would be pointless to argue... she says arguing is even stupid, and I agree. But that doesn't mean that a mature adult can't discuss the topic in a way that shouldn't upset a semi-decent employer.
I would certainly discuss the issue. The gratuity is part of the normal financial benefits and the reason that people are interested in these jobs. Especially a teacher that has been there before can easily mention differences and ask why.
Any employer that isn't bothering to follow this part of the labor law and won't discuss it will likely follow little else in the contract, and I would certainly avoid them unless totally desperate for a job ASAP.
VS |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Try to know before you go. After's much too late.
Regards,
John |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
| It would be pointless to argue with them before you even stat working... |
No, that's more like a stupid tactic to use. Bringing an error to the employer's attention and giving them the opportunity to correct it (or not) in no way means arguing with them about it. A little diplomacy goes a long way. Besides, if the OP feels it's important to him/her, there's no harm in addressing it. |
Oh you find it "stupid", eh? Nice.. very assertive woman. Someone doesn't even set his foot in KSA/any country yet, but pointing out the error of the employer is a smart thing to do?so that he can make a statement " Look, I am from.........., I am smarter than you guys, you can't rip me off.. etc? It is either you take it leave it..I doubt the employer is mistakenly stating 1/2 month or 1/3 or 20% of the salary as ESB. The employer knows it and they want to set this rate, just by cheating the labor law or just the way it works for them etc.
....
My point is focusing on the most important item of the contract, not the small stuff. Some employers pay , actually, according to the labor law, ESB is something one can receive when s/he finally makes a final exit of his 1 or 25 years of his contract term, as some keep renewing the contract and they do not leave KSA for years, except a short annual leave of 1/2 or one month. Major or minor, it is up to the individual.. It would be like negotiating to pen down " who gets the dog?" in pre-nup contract before you apply for a marriage license. |
Dear (HR contact person):
I'm in receipt of the employment contract. I noticed in section____, the end of service benefit states ____. However, my understanding is that it should state ____ based on the Saudi labor law.
Please advise.
Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
Regards,
Bonesleet
This is what I meant by being diplomatic without finger pointing, name calling, hair pulling, shoe throwing, or interjecting anger or any other emotion into the communication. Seriously, it's a generic employment contract and not a prenuptial agreement.
Anyway, I agree that it doesn't matter if you or I ciould live with the discrepancy; it's about the OP's expectations and acceptance of the terms and conditions of the contract with this particular employer. If Bonesleet is really bothered by the ESB as written, then he/she has the right to bring it up to the employer. This is simply an option. Whether HR corrects it or not is another matter, but at least Bonesleet attempted to get it resolved... diplomatically. |
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cultofpersonality
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Nomad Soul merely understands the way things work in Saudi. Highlight the issue now! Speak up for yourself now! Don't wait and hope for things to change. Put the question politely if you have to. |
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coder
Joined: 12 Jun 2014
Posts: 94
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Fifth Column wrote: |
Then please to explain this (to be found as a "stickie"):
"Part two: general directives:
The Labour Law in Saudi Arabia is a balanced law that regulates all aspects of labour relations between workers and employees and applicable to all Saudi and Non-Saudi workers without discrimination." |
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Well, I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat myself or which language I should use to be understood. Perhaps I'm using words that are too difficult.
Again, paraphrasing myself:
A KSA employer has the flexibility to interpret the Labour (sic) Law, especially items such as severance awards, as it relates to and impacts company policies. This means, for example, that an employer MUST have some kind of "severance award", but exactly what that consists of depends on company policies.
This "interpretative approach" is not something that is "written down" anyplace. It is something that is simply understood by all parties concerned as the way business in conducted in KSA (and many parts of the world).
The OP of this thread has been offered a "severance package". Therefore, the company is in compliance with the Labor Law. The fact that it is not what he expected based on his previous employment in KSA is almost beside the point. The employer has every right to determine the details of this severance package based on his company's policies. The OP can enquire about the severance package he was offered.....but there was no "mistake" made by the company and his enquiry will basically get him nowhere. The company will simply say: "That's what we offer". Take it or leave it.
Expecting or insisting on a nearly duplicate severance package as one had on a previous contract is like asking for a nearly duplicate SALARY based on what one was making in a previous job. "You're only offering me SR10.000/month but in my last job 2 years ago, I was making SRSR13,000, so you should be offering me at least that now". It just doesn't work that way.....in KSA or anywhere
This "interpretative" approach to so-called "laws" and "codes" is, I guess, something that is hard for western employees is KSA to swallow. To them, it's either one thing or the other. Once you start "interpreting" laws, you basically have no law at all, or so the thinking goes.
If this is how a prospective employee thinks, I really doubt a sojourn in KSA should be considered. You'll be in a fog and a daze your entire time there.
(Also note the "strict construction" of the US Constitution debate that has been going on for decades in the USA. Interpretation of written laws is not a practice found only in KSA). |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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No need to be insulting.
You obviously believe that if people aren't instantly persuaded by your unqualified opinion, then they are mentally questionable.
I predict that, with that attitude, your tenure here will be short-lived...
P.s.-You completely avoided answering my question...indicating that you have no answer readily available... |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
You obviously believe that if people aren't instantly persuaded by your unqualified opinion, then they are mentally questionable.
I predict that, with that attitude, your tenure here will be short-lived...
P.s.-You completely avoided answering my question...indicating that you have no answer readily available... |
Who is this 'you' to whom you refer?
If it's me (  ) then: my opinions are by no means unqualified. My tenure is secure, and I have not avoided your question. |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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There there John, I know you are a retired pro and you might know some things we do not. I honestly always respect and appreciate the elderly's advice and ideas.
The thing is you can't tell who is right or wrong in this case. Neither NS/anyone nor I would be the OP's employer in KSA, and we definitely can't answer all his questions correctly or the way he might want to hear. Anyone's point of view/ past experience with his employer would be void and useless and so could be mine, we are not signing the contract with the OP. all of us on this thread are just contributing ideas so, it would be nice if you could understand where some posters come from and appreciate our contribution. I know it is hard to swallow the fact that what one used to know is not the same anymore/obsolete now. All our ideas are useless as we just told him what we know or experienced, some even may have told the OP, his or her personal experience from 1930. The OP's employer would be the one who decides, at the end of the day. And Op can decide what he really wants according to his personal circumstances. ( lol, that means how desperate one is to take a job in KSA). Taking a job in KSA is a very risky gambling, and one needs to remember the Lord a lot. ( see the logic?)
Things might have been much easier 10-20 years ago but not anymore. Have a great day! |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I really like your posts and ideas, VS. Sometimes, by reading your posts, I even start to think that you can read my mind and are speaking on my behalf and I go " OMG, VS, how do you know I was going to say that?". It must be that great minds think alike.
Anyway, one thing about Saudi or Arabic or local culture or religious obligation is that " it is best not to point out someone's mistake" ( Huh? seriously? I am losing 15% of monthly salary as ESB, cant you see?).. and " try to conceal or avoid discussing the fault of a Muslim brother". The best Analogy would be " don't throw stones as To err is human, etc". If we mentioned some mistakes in the contract to the interviewer ( who always says " do you have any questions?") who is definitely not the decision maker of the job placement. And, it would be not about the 20% or 1/2 or 1/3 as ESB, it would be about this new guy points out/doesn't conceal our mistakes. To make friendship, letting go of some unimportant things would be a good idea.
Have a great day! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Dear SheikMilkShake,
While it's true that no one can give a !00% guaranteed answer, this is not good advice to give anyone considering going to Saudi:
"It would be pointless to argue with them before you even stat working..."
because, in the first place, as Nomad pointed out, you don't "argue." You politely ask for clarification. Then, as I mentioned, you darn well better try to make as sure as you can about anything you're concerned about before you get to the place because once you're there, it's way too late. And that's something that hasn't changed in Saudi and likely never will.
By the way, I'm not retired. Usually, I teach ESL 15 hours a week at the local community college. This semester, though, I have to fill in for the ESL coordinator who's leaving. So, for the next four months, I'll won't be teaching; I'll be the "temporary coordinator." I didn't want to have the job permanently; I prefer to teach. So, I told the director I'd do it until they could hire someone else. I'm hoping that will happen soon. 
Regards,
John |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| SheikMilkShake wrote: |
Nice.. very assertive woman...
Anyway, one thing about Saudi or Arabic or local culture or religious obligation is that " it is best not to point out someone's mistake"
There there John, I know you are a retired pro...
Taking a job in KSA is a very risky gambling, and one needs to remember the Lord a lot. |
SheikMilkShake's posts provide examples of the expressions to be expected in a position in KSA. Patronizing sexist and ageist remarks nuanced by religious reference are common. Nomad Soul's prescription to be professional and unambiguous about the terms of a contract is a standard ignored at a peril to employers claiming to advance the technological and economic competitiveness of the Kingdom. Not to mention a job seeker.
If the austere quality of my response seems uncharitable, it's due to a fatigue with the excuses proffered by Arab-Muslims for sheltering a generation of students in medicine and engineering from contemporary materials and practice. |
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SheikMilkShake
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: |
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The last poster mentioned some points that I have not highlighted so far in my posts. For them, it is always " these people have no jobs, no healthcare and nothing in their countries, and we are helping them by giving jobs to earn $$$$" but from our point of view as someone mentioned " we are teaching you, helping you to know the modern science and how to operate a washing machine, etc..
the gaps in cultural or social viewpoints are so huge that it is always impossible for one to fill it. Everything is different , because you are a woman, non-muslim, non-arab, social status, racial background etc.
Oh John, btw, looking at your impressive 12200+ posts, and you mentioned time and again that your are (Saudi) retired, so even I do not know your current employment situation, surely you have left Saudi and retired form teaching in KSA. I didn't imagine you as all foxy , with a rod and a reel in your hand enjoying fishing in the sun in Alaska. You are a living example of how we should let go of unimportant things in life. After Saudi Arabia, you still keep working as we all would and should do, arguing ( I believe it is 1/2 month salary as ESB, but I was wondering if you could adjust the rate or the percentage of the ESB in my contract, the way I want it, not the way you want it.. Possible?).. the interviewer would never mention what you requested to the Manager or his superiors, and it would be silly to expect some reply from them in writing that " Dear Mr. Bond, We apologize for stating the wrong rate of ESB in the contract we presented to you for your consideration. We would try our level best to accommodate to your needs as we strongly believe that you would be one of the most valuable team members at University of Never Land, and we appreciate your kind professional input to help us understand the Saudi Labor law..etc."
Have a great day |
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