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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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 Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Maitoshi wrote: |
| water rat wrote: |
| Back in the late 1980s there was talk of the new hedonistic "me" generation emerging in Japan. People weren't buying into the cradle to grave corporate 60-hour working week lifestyle anymore. However, absolutely every Japanese told me this phenomena was confined to the popular magazines and had no basis in reality. Still true? |
Ask a freeter  |
Indeed. I think most people who don't want to conform, simply totally drop out of mainstream society. Much like the shut-ins, the freeters don't really try at a "normal" life, and just do enough to get by. As if you actually try, to fall into the whole salaryman life/trap.
I'd say, in general, no most people are not rejecting the 60 hour work week and crappy personal life As there really isn't a viable option for most people who want to get married and have kids. Just no middle ground |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| mitsui wrote: |
Conform.
Don't question your elders.
Don't learn to think for yourself, just do as you are told. |
Sounds like my observations of the US. The only real difference is the public/cultural gloss that's put on it all. |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
| Last night at martial training, our Sensei got talking about the advantages and disadvantages of collectivism and groups. He said that Japan's great power of group behaviour has too high a cost. |
This blows my mind. The martial arts senseis I have dealt with would never talk about such things. Nor would I expect them to. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| This blows my mind. |
"It's an ill wind that blows no minds."
This is why I keep going back to the martial dudes I train with. They're not just talk. They can hand you your ass thoughtfully. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| steki47 wrote: |
This blows my mind. The martial arts senseis I have dealt with would never talk about such things. Nor would I expect them to. |
Not every MA here is the same. I do BJJ, and we don't even bow for the most part. My coach never lectures us, nor tells us how to be moral. Not all MAs are like that. |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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What rxk22 said.
Mitsui mentioned conformity. Our senseis tell us not to conform for the sake of conformity, but play the game when it appears advantageous, and think for ourselves when we see something clearly not serving us or the people we care about.
Outside of MA training, I met some elderly hippies who protested on the barricades in the 60s. They selectively respect cultural conventions. One admits he has mellowed a lot. He's never worn a suit in his adult life, a point of pride. |
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The Fifth Column
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 331
Location: His habitude with lexical items protrudes not unlike a damaged pollex!!!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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"Wagamama"! That's what they called her. My better half knew that marrying a nice Japanese fellow, pushing out puppies and growing old in a society that's so keen on "hammerin' down" non-conforming (for the mere sake of conforming) "nails" wasn't going to be her cup-o-tea.
Conformity in Japan serves the same purpose as someone getting up at an AA meeting bellowing: "Hi, my name is (whoever) and I'm an alcoholic." If someone doesn't utter this gambit, but merely introduces themselves...all of a sudden an air of nervous apprehension pervades the self-loathing assembly. People become uncomfortable in their own skins.
Those Japanese who choose not to conform make the whole group nervous...out of balance and desperately trying to find a way to preserve "wa". |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
What rxk22 said.
Mitsui mentioned conformity. Our senseis tell us not to conform for the sake of conformity, but play the game when it appears advantageous, and think for ourselves when we see something clearly not serving us or the people we care about.
Outside of MA training, I met some elderly hippies who protested on the barricades in the 60s. They selectively respect cultural conventions. One admits he has mellowed a lot. He's never worn a suit in his adult life, a point of pride. |
I have met a few older hippies as well. Interesting how most of them, like all of us, had to work for the man. In the US as well, many hippies went on to be yuppies. As, if you don't conform, you are out of society.
As for MAs, not everyone is the same. What works for one person, may be a almost impossible for others to do. Kicking may be great for a tall person, but for a short person, it may be almost pointless. Hence, you really need someone to let you/hel you create your own game. Straight mimicking doesn't always help, and can be a waste of time in many cases |
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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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I study arts derived from traditional martial schools. Fighting is only the visible part of the training. There is the philosophy and life lessons taught by crotchety old guys, civilians and retired military personnel.
I'm tiny and strong for my size, but am told not to rely on power in training.
Not mimicking - this is taught in the traditional arts, not just in modern arts like BJJ. Sensei wants us to critically examine the classic techniques, learn them to the best of our ability and the limits of our capabilities, and then adapt as necessary.
Critical thinking in action, I suppose. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
What rxk22 said.
Mitsui mentioned conformity. Our senseis tell us not to conform for the sake of conformity, but play the game when it appears advantageous, and think for ourselves when we see something clearly not serving us or the people we care about.
Outside of MA training, I met some elderly hippies who protested on the barricades in the 60s. They selectively respect cultural conventions. One admits he has mellowed a lot. He's never worn a suit in his adult life, a point of pride. |
About what Mitsui said: in my high school we were shown an instructive film about morality. Every one is either a pre-conventionalist, a conventionalist or a post-conventionalist. The pre- is small child level morality, along the lines of I won't swipe a cookie because mum will spank me. The conventionalist is the pre- all grown up with no place to go. S/he abides by the law because it is the law - no questions asked. The Post- considers himself above the law, but not in a bad way like Billy the Kid, more like the conscientious objector - answering to a higher law than the civil code. The three categories were further sub-divided into two; unfortunately I don't remember how. it might have been positive and negative, so yeah, post- is either Al Capone or a corporate whistle-blower. I can't find anything on the internet Maybe someone can help me with that.
Even as I watched this film as a teenager I felt I was - and planned to always be a post-conventionalist.
Perhaps the "lower" level of post-conventionalism was what your sensei was saying: 'play the game when it appears advantageous, and think for ourselves when we see something clearly not serving us or the people we care about' - and the higher was following what you know to be right despite the consequences, even if it's NOT to your own personal advantage. The highest level had to do with feeling you knew better than society or the law.
So my point is that there is said to be even higher laws than your sensei spoke about, and Japanese society - ultra-conformist as it is- would likely be completely ignorant of upper post-conventionalist thought. Of course, I cannot say how your senseis really feel. How would I know what's in their hearts? |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| TokyoLiz wrote: |
I study arts derived from traditional martial schools. Fighting is only the visible part of the training. There is the philosophy and life lessons taught by crotchety old guys, civilians and retired military personnel.
I'm tiny and strong for my size, but am told not to rely on power in training.
Not mimicking - this is taught in the traditional arts, not just in modern arts like BJJ. Sensei wants us to critically examine the classic techniques, learn them to the best of our ability and the limits of our capabilities, and then adapt as necessary.
Critical thinking in action, I suppose. |
OK, I think a lot of this the the Do vs Jitsu. As the Jitsu arts are practiced more like sports. There isn't really a philosophy that is taught with them.
What is interesting to me though, is that many traditional styles are actually fairly new. Aikido, Japanese Karate are fairly new, newer than Judo and BJJ.
I did Karate in the US, so I am not sure how it is practiced in Japan. But in the US, it was fairly rigid, even the style's master from Okinawa was pretty strict in how to do the katas/techniques and how to interpret them.
That was before the MMA craze really came about though, so perhaps I was studying during a more isolated era?
OOC what style do you train? |
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