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maximumspicy
Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 4
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 Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: Is a law degree of any value when looking for an ESL job? |
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Hi everyone, I'm new to this board and I was hoping some of you might be able to offer some advice about something. I have a BA and a JD (law degree) and I am considering going to China to teach English for a year or more in the near future. I am wondering what (if any) value a law degree might have in getting a job teaching English in China.
Additional information: I don't have any teaching certifications but I would be willing to get one before going to China. I don't have any experience teaching. I am only interested in teaching adults or university students, not children.
All replies are appreciated, thank you. |
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roadwalker
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Bachelors and JD seems to be common, or at least not uncommon. In terms of value, the JD probably won't get you too much additional salary, but you should push it as a post grad degree. I'd spell it out, too: juris doctor. Some universities may be impressed with it and have you teach law related classes in English, or give a one-off lecture etc. Between you and the other guy looking for a job, it may persuade the school to hire you over him/her, all else being equal, including salary.
I'd strongly advise some type of TEFL/TESOL/CELTA course to get yourself comfortable in the classroom and confident about what you are teaching. Also many schools list that as a minimum requirement. The lack of teaching experience will hurt you too, as many schools and provinces will insist on two years teaching experience. Good luck. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Emphasize the doctor. It will definitely help getting a Universoty job. In fact, unless you're trying to work at a Univeraity with an amazing reputation and/or amazing pay it will basically make you a shoe-in I would think. They may want you to teach classes way outiside your comfort zone though. I have a BA in English and a JD and they wanted me to teach international economics. I talked with a youngish Chinese professor and he was a former attorney as well. That kind of transition seems pretty normal.
Go for it. I got pressured to give law a shot and it was OK for the first year or two but man it is a shitty field to work in. If you can get a government gig or in house go for it, but if you have to work for a law firm or hang out your shingle then seriously think about alternatives. I hung out my shingle and would never want to do so again.
I would say any kind of doctorate degree is extremely uncommon. It may not add value for teaching kindy, but definitely for unis. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Are there any law schools in your home country that have a particular niche with students from China?
They may have partner unis in China which could use someone to teach 'English for legal studies' or somesuch. |
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maximumspicy
Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| jm21 wrote: |
Emphasize the doctor. It will definitely help getting a Universoty job. In fact, unless you're trying to work at a Univeraity with an amazing reputation and/or amazing pay it will basically make you a shoe-in I would think. They may want you to teach classes way outiside your comfort zone though. I have a BA in English and a JD and they wanted me to teach international economics. I talked with a youngish Chinese professor and he was a former attorney as well. That kind of transition seems pretty normal.
Go for it. I got pressured to give law a shot and it was OK for the first year or two but man it is a shitty field to work in. If you can get a government gig or in house go for it, but if you have to work for a law firm or hang out your shingle then seriously think about alternatives. I hung out my shingle and would never want to do so again.
I would say any kind of doctorate degree is extremely uncommon. It may not add value for teaching kindy, but definitely for unis. |
Thanks to all of you for your replies so far.
jm21, I have significant reservations about remaining here and persuing law as a career. If I do it will be to hang out a shingle and grind away at criminal and family legal aid files. I was looking at some past threads and I see you mentioned you were interested in doing unbundled work online. This is something that appeals to me as well. I'll be licensed soon and I've thought about the idea of offering legal services in my home jurisdiction online while living and teaching in China. Is this the route you ended up going? Has it worked out well?
Thanks again for the replies so far, please keep them coming. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| maximumspicy wrote: |
| jm21 wrote: |
Emphasize the doctor. It will definitely help getting a Universoty job. In fact, unless you're trying to work at a Univeraity with an amazing reputation and/or amazing pay it will basically make you a shoe-in I would think. They may want you to teach classes way outiside your comfort zone though. I have a BA in English and a JD and they wanted me to teach international economics. I talked with a youngish Chinese professor and he was a former attorney as well. That kind of transition seems pretty normal.
Go for it. I got pressured to give law a shot and it was OK for the first year or two but man it is a shitty field to work in. If you can get a government gig or in house go for it, but if you have to work for a law firm or hang out your shingle then seriously think about alternatives. I hung out my shingle and would never want to do so again.
I would say any kind of doctorate degree is extremely uncommon. It may not add value for teaching kindy, but definitely for unis. |
Thanks to all of you for your replies so far.
jm21, I have significant reservations about remaining here and persuing law as a career. If I do it will be to hang out a shingle and grind away at criminal and family legal aid files. I was looking at some past threads and I see you mentioned you were interested in doing unbundled work online. This is something that appeals to me as well. I'll be licensed soon and I've thought about the idea of offering legal services in my home jurisdiction online while living and teaching in China. Is this the route you ended up going? Has it worked out well?
Thanks again for the replies so far, please keep them coming. |
I ended up staying in law longer than I should have for various reasons, so I'm so burned out on it now I want nothing to do with it.
In general there is a lot of competition for unbundled services, both from lawyers and paralegal companies. Contested family law cases, which is the bulk of what you would be doing if you hung out your shingle, are nasty. So the uncontested cases get snapped up quickly. Many people want to hire someone they can talk to in person.
I think if you do all your own SEO you can earn enough to pay your bar dues and CLEs. To earn real money at it takes time, and it would be very hard to do anything beyond the most basic paperwork without a few years experience doing contested cases. A lot of practicing law, especially family law, does not have as much to do with the written law. It's about handling people, mediating, understanding that the law is flexible and judges don't always obey it, and so on.
Also, most states' "ethical" rules can make handling uncontested family law cases more difficult because you are only supposed to represent one party, and represent them zealously. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| So one of the more prestigious international schools offered me a job and specifically mentioned they normally hire more experienced teachers but they were really impressed by my JD. Turned them down because the housing and flight reimbursement situation was not good for me but sounds like they will come back with a better offer. JD dedinitely helped. They didn't seem to give A-1 crap about any teaching cert besides fully certified in your home country. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:36 am Post subject: |
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So there you go. As you said before in another thread, jm21, a law degree is the perfect qualification for teaching/coaching IELTS. A prestigious international school offered you a contract with crummy terms. That's a good indication of how prestigious the school was.
You might want to turn down the hubris a few degrees, jm21. Chinese schools won't be too impressed with any degree if the holder has no experience.
Really. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
So there you go. As you said before in another thread, jm21, a law degree is the perfect qualification for teaching/coaching IELTS. A prestigious international school offered you a contract with crummy terms. That's a good indication of how prestigious the school was.
You might want to turn down the hubris a few degrees, jm21. Chinese schools won't be too impressed with any degree if the holder has no experience.
Really. |
The terms of their contract would be excellent for many people but didn't work well for my situation. E.g. large flight allowance and they reimburse you a significant amount shortly after arrival, but you have to actually go home or visit your family to use it. I don't intend on going home for quite a while so it doesn't work well for me. I'd get my ticket there paid for and maybe a ticket to Korea or Japan to go on a short vacation with my mom next summer. Whoop dee doo. If I was flying in from Seattle to teach for a year they would pay for both tickets which would be nice.
Plus I promised my girlfriend I wouldn't take a job outside of Shandong unless it offers significantly more pay than what I can get here. All her family lives here. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
So there you go. As you said before in another thread, jm21, a law degree is the perfect qualification for teaching/coaching IELTS. A prestigious international school offered you a contract with crummy terms. That's a good indication of how prestigious the school was.
You might want to turn down the hubris a few degrees, jm21. Chinese schools won't be too impressed with any degree if the holder has no experience.
Really. |
Yeah Max. I don't want to be rude, but so you have a law degree? So what? You obviously weren't cut out to be a lawyer, or you wouldn't be 'stooping' to English teaching. And if you were a real lawyer, well, all of us non-lawyers to a man think lawyers are no better than night soil. Night soil is actually more useful than litigation. So get over yourself.
Sure you can teach IELTS, you must be intelligent and articulate (and a native speaker of English), or you would have failed even more miserably than you have at law, but so are the rest of us, intelligent, literate and articulate or we would have failed as teachers. Even I can teach IELTS and I'm just a rat. I know I just said this, but again -get over yourself.
One could even say old Bud Powell and I and our ilk are one step ahead of you because we had the good sense not to pursue a law degree and than piddle it away - another four years older and deeper in debt.
Apologies - in advance. |
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BleedingBlue
Joined: 22 Oct 2014
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| WHAT makes you think a law degree ks deserving of special attention or a spectacular background? It is meaningless. Nobody would care and it only draws attention to you as, "why would a lawyer up and leave to go "teach" English in China"? Seriously, it does. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| water rat wrote: |
| Bud Powell wrote: |
So there you go. As you said before in another thread, jm21, a law degree is the perfect qualification for teaching/coaching IELTS. A prestigious international school offered you a contract with crummy terms. That's a good indication of how prestigious the school was.
You might want to turn down the hubris a few degrees, jm21. Chinese schools won't be too impressed with any degree if the holder has no experience.
Really. |
Yeah Max. I don't want to be rude, but so you have a law degree? So what? You obviously weren't cut out to be a lawyer, or you wouldn't be 'stooping' to English teaching. And if you were a real lawyer, well, all of us non-lawyers to a man think lawyers are no better than night soil. Night soil is actually more useful than litigation. So get over yourself.
Sure you can teach IELTS, you must be intelligent and articulate (and a native speaker of English), or you would have failed even more miserably than you have at law, but so are the rest of us, intelligent, literate and articulate or we would have failed as teachers. Even I can teach IELTS and I'm just a rat. I know I just said this, but again -get over yourself.
One could even say old Bud Powell and I and our ilk are one step ahead of you because we had the good sense not to pursue a law degree and than piddle it away - another four years older and deeper in debt.
Apologies - in advance. |
BP's post was directed at me, not Max. Not sure what I ever did to raise your ire. The post BP is referring to is when he and I got into a pissing contest on another thread. He was being what I considered incredibly insulting and arrogant and I responded in kind to get his goat. Childish but it was funny at the time.
I often think to myself I should have done this instead of going to law school. But back then I don't know if I would have had enough confidence to do the job well, and certainly less skills to bring to the table. Ultimately it is what it is. I was a pretty shy guy back then. I was fascinated with Japan and applied to a job at one of the big chains after I graduated from college. Got totally backstabbed at a group interview and, right or wrong, gave up on the idea.
Max was asking if his degree was useful and I was assuring him it is. We are in the education field. Our education and degrees are more important here than in possibly any other field. Somewhat self-propogating. I don't agree with it but that is the truth as far as I can tell.
Law is a shit field to work in. Glad I made the change. I know a landscaper who used to be an engineer at a high tech company. He is very happy with the change. It happens. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I really meant no offense. I'm sorry. I just don't like lawyers, and I picked up on Bud's vibe.  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Maximumspicy & jm21:
The problem with mentioning the JD is that you assume others see the same level of value in the degree as you do. Keep in mind that not every country in the world perceives the profession as highly esteemed. Moreover, you can't expect foreign employers to have a handle on what a law degree from the US, UK, wherever, entails nor how it might relate to TEFL.
So instead of constantly touting you have a JD, focus on promoting the transferable skills you used in your legal position----those invaluable to TEFL. For example, that might include skills such as public speaking (presentations), academic writing and business communication, negotiation, critical thinking, and so on. That's more relevant to teaching and employers than a piece of paper. Plus, it doesn't currently define you nor where you are in your TEFL career at this point in your life.
Lastly, do an Internet search on TEFL with law degree jd to read about how others transitioned from law into TEFL. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Maximumspicy & jm21:
The problem with mentioning the JD is that you assume others see the same level of value in the degree as you do. Keep in mind that not every country in the world perceives the profession as highly esteemed. Moreover, you can't expect foreign employers to have a handle on what a law degree from the US, UK, wherever, entails nor how it might relate to TEFL.
So instead of constantly touting you have a JD, focus on promoting the transferable skills you used in your legal position----those invaluable to TEFL. For example, that might include skills such as public speaking (presentations), academic writing and business communication, negotiation, critical thinking, and so on. That's more relevant to teaching and employers than a piece of paper. Plus, it doesn't currently define you nor where you are in your TEFL career at this point in your life.
Lastly, do an Internet search on TEFL with law degree jd to read about how others transitioned from law into TEFL. |
I'm doing fine. My rapport in real life is not the same as on this board. At my current job my degree basically made me an automatic hire. At my future job it gave me a lot of leverage. I did a hard sell on writing skills and public speaking skills. Seems to be working out fine. At my future job the department head had lived in the US for a while and tutored some recent law grads in Mandarin, and there is another teacher with a JD working there, so she had been pretty impressed by JD holders.
I am not nearly as preachy about the JD in real life. I just like to piss off folks like BP on these forums for some perverse reason. |
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