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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jm21 wrote: |
| I did a hard sell on writing skills and public speaking skills. |
The fact that you did a hard sell means you're not promoting your skills properly and continue to use your JD as a crutch. I've never had to do a hard sell on my transferable skills; in fact, employers are usually the first to bring them up because they're prominently indicated on my CV. Anyway, it's always best to do the "work" for prospective employers and not have them guessing about your skills. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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I am not nearly as preachy about the JD in real life. I just like to piss off folks like BP on these forums for some perverse reason.
Why would I get p*ssed off at a JD? It's the big stuff that gets to me. What p*sses me off is when I'm the only person at the bus stop, and the bus I am waiting for is empty and passes me by. |
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water rat
Joined: 30 Aug 2014
Posts: 1098
Location: North Antarctica
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
I am not nearly as preachy about the JD in real life. I just like to piss off folks like BP on these forums for some perverse reason.
Why would I get p*ssed off at a JD? It's the big stuff that gets to me. What p*sses me off is when I'm the only person at the bus stop, and the bus I am waiting for is empty and passes me by. |
I get you, bro. I'm so 'no account' dogs don't bark at me.  |
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maximumspicy
Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all of your replies so far, I appreciate them.
It looks like there isn't much consensus on this one, with opinions and experiences ranging from jm21's position that a law degree is a definite asset, to water rat and bleeding blue who think at best it is worthless and may actually be a hindrance in that it draws "negative attention".
I have trouble believing that many people would see any additional degree as adding negative value. If someone wants to teach English wouldn't the school be happy if they had additional education above the minimum required, just as they would be happy with any additional qualifications or experience? Although I am perhaps less enthusiastic than jm21 about the value of a legal education and the skills it helps one to develop but I just don't see how it could be considered a liability. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| maximumspicy wrote: |
| I have trouble believing that many people would see any additional degree as adding negative value. If someone wants to teach English wouldn't the school be happy if they had additional education above the minimum required, just as they would be happy with any additional qualifications or experience? |
Additional education in what? Just having a bunch of academic credentials means zippo to employers. They only have value if related to TEFL, and that could include transferable skills, which, as I previously stated, should be indicated on one's CV.
On the other hand, if your interest is in teaching law to students in China, then your degree would be useful. However, not having a solid background/experience in teaching and fluency in Mandarin could dissuade employers from hiring you when there likely are other applicants better qualified for the job. (I'm speaking in general since I don't teach in China.) For example, I've taught both Business English and English for Legal Purposes (ELP) at a private, English-medium college in the Mid East. But I also have an MA in Teaching (MAT), which gave me the skills and knowledge to design the ELP curriculum to focus on contracts and academic writing.
Point is, just because you have a degree in XYZ doesn't guarantee it's something employers are excited to see. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| maximumspicy wrote: |
| I have trouble believing that many people would see any additional degree as adding negative value. If someone wants to teach English wouldn't the school be happy if they had additional education above the minimum required, just as they would be happy with any additional qualifications or experience? |
Additional education in what? Just having a bunch of academic credentials means zippo to employers. They only have value if related to TEFL, and that could include transferable skills, which, as I previously stated, should be indicated on one's CV.
On the other hand, if your interest is in teaching law to students in China, then your degree would be useful. However, not having a solid background/experience in teaching and fluency in Mandarin could dissuade employers from hiring you when there likely are other applicants better qualified for the job. (I'm speaking in general since I don't teach in China.) For example, I've taught both Business English and English for Legal Purposes (ELP) at a private, English-medium college in the Mid East. But I also have an MA in Teaching (MAT), which gave me the skills and knowledge to design the ELP curriculum to focus on contracts and academic writing.
Point is, just because you have a degree in XYZ doesn't guarantee it's something employers are excited to see. |
If you have never taught in China maybe you shouldn't be making such strong assertions. China is not the US or the mideast. Extra degrees in unrelated fields can make a big difference here. Often at Unis in particular a higher degree will get hiring preference and an automatic increase in salary.
There is not really a market for teaching legal English...yet. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| maximumspicy wrote: |
| ...wouldn't the school be happy if they had additional education above the minimum required, just as they would be happy with any additional qualifications or experience? Although I am perhaps less enthusiastic than jm21 about the value of a legal education and the skills it helps one to develop but I just don't see how it could be considered a liability. |
I'm a fool for stepping into this...because the assertions don't seem to be about the same thing.
It's not a liability, but NomadSoul tends to advocate for what can be termed the "professionalization" of the ESL industry because, I think, it's been their experience and are, in my opinion, an exceptional example of an MAT holder. I've worked with some real stinkers with that degree. A Master's in Teaching is a professional degree, and its conflation with an academic one is common, but not a conflation NomadSoul exploits as much as proves its potential. In its worst example, it's one of several single year Masters that colleges provided to licensed teachers as continuing education, in my opinion, to stratify pay levels among politicized budgets of the social services.
Policy and law are profound topics to master and the skills transferred to its graduates are bested only by medical school. But how would those skills relate to instructional theory, method and practice? I've been surprised a few times.
Not clearly, is NomadSoul's simple, professional assertion, and highly trained professionals tend to advocate for their own culture of practice and qualification. But academe is an ivory tower, and "in the real world," jm21's not incorrect to assert the perceptions and allowances granted to an advanced, academic degree are often liberal.
Hierarchies are inexorably necessary and biased. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: |
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In any case, don't worry so much. You shouldn't have any problem getting a uni job. They didn't even interview me for my current job. The "interview" was a few minutes of them explaining the contract. And they apparently didn't even know what my degrees were because they gave me the salary for a Bachelor's originally and then increased it when I told them I had a doctorate.
You are a youngish native speaker with "doctor" on your resume, you're fine. These are easy jobs to get.
I wonder how an llb gets treated.... |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
It's not a liability, but NomadSoul tends to advocate for what can be termed the "professionalization" of the ESL industry because, I think, it's been their experience and are, in my opinion, an exceptional example of an MAT holder. I've worked with some real stinkers with that degree. A Master's in Teaching is a professional degree, and its conflation with an academic one is common, but not a conflation NomadSoul exploits as much as proves its potential. In its worst example, it's one of several single year Masters that colleges provided to licensed teachers as continuing education, in my opinion, to stratify pay levels among politicized budgets of the social services.
Not clearly, is NomadSoul's simple, professional assertion, and highly trained professionals tend to advocate for their own culture of practice and qualification. But academe is an ivory tower, and "in the real world," jm21's not incorrect to assert the perceptions and allowances granted to an advanced, academic degree are often liberal. Hierarchies are inexorably necessary and biased. |
Frankly, there are stinkers as well as nutcases in every profession and at every qualification level. Besides, not all MATs are created equal; my US university doesn't offer a one-year MAT program, nor was I required to focus my studies on k-12 education since my interest was in teaching adult EFL students (my degree emphasis). In fact, I was a career changer from a non-education field (i.e., legal) when I entered my particular degree program. But this isn't about me advocating my degree nor about MATs. (Seriously, with over 4000 posts within the Cafe's forums, I've mentioned my degree on less than a dozen discussion threads, including those specific to BAs/MAs.) If anything, I'm an advocate for language students receiving quality instruction.
Anyway, my point was that it's better to have a degree that at least provides solid transferable skills than one that doesn't offer anything. Those skills should be specified on the job seeker's CV to make it easier for prospective employers when deciding who to hire and what to pay. This strategy is advised for any job an individual is interested in. Obviously, for TEFL, teacher training via a valid TEFL cert will benefit both the teacher and students. Hopefully, the OP will lean in that direction. |
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maximumspicy
Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:45 am Post subject: |
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It was two other posters who suggested a JD would be a liability (water rat and bleeding blue), not Nomad Soul.
| BleedingBlue wrote: |
| WHAT makes you think a law degree ks deserving of special attention or a spectacular background? It is meaningless. Nobody would care and it only draws attention to you as, "why would a lawyer up and leave to go "teach" English in China"? Seriously, it does. |
Anyway, after running in to some of Bleeding Blue's other posts elsewhere on this forum I think I can respectfully disregard his/her opinion on this particular issue.
Nomad Soul, your replies in this thread have been reasonable and I thank you for them. I certainly see it as a possibility that the JD just isn't worth anything in the ESL environment (some see it that way in the west too). But it sounds like your position is based mostly on speculation and your own ideas about what makes a good teacher rather than experience you or people you know have had teaching with a JD in China.
Of those who have weighed in so far, I think the only person with actual experience working with a JD in China is jm21, and in his case it was worth something to his employer as they increased his salary.
jm21, I only very recently started to consider the possibility of teaching in China but from what I gather from looking around the internet it is pretty easy for a native speaker with a BA to land a decent uni job. My concern isn't really about being able to get a job, I'm just curious about what additional pay or opportunities if any I might get as a result of having the JD. Would you mind sharing whether it was a significant bump up in salary?
I realize that what I'm asking here is a pretty specific question that many people don't have experience with themselves, but I do really appreciate the replies from all of you so far. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Frankly, there are stinkers as well as nutcases in every profession and at every qualification level. |
Amen. I thought the same thing as I wrote it, but it diluted my distinguishing professional from academic degrees, and their conflation by non-western administrators (and people in general, really.) I'm unsurprised to learn yours was not the more typical one-year professional degree.
| Quote: |
| If anything, I'm an advocate for language students receiving quality instruction. |
But I'm reading one in support of the other, and the "professionalization" of Es/fL is a trend I've witnessed over 25 years. Its prescriptions, its merging of competitive markets and distance from academic disciplines, can be self-serving. Maybe a de-rail, but an attempt to articulate the dissension.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, my point was that it's better to have a degree that at least provides solid transferable skills than one that doesn't offer anything. Those skills should be specified on the job seeker's CV to make it easier for prospective employers when deciding who to hire and what to pay. This strategy is advised for any job an individual is interested in. Obviously, for TEFL, teacher training via a valid TEFL cert will benefit both the teacher and students. Hopefully, the OP will lean in that direction. |
I've placed in bold an assertion I can identify as a highly trained professional advocating for their own culture of practice and qualification as it's not obvious to jm21, their employer, and others like them. Your use of "valid TEFL" is telling. How is it that "invalid" certifications exist? Markets. So to is "solid transferable skills" as it demands a metric and regulatory agency within a culture (education) distinguished from business and government by its priorities and traditions.
In many respects, yours and jm21's positions are mutually valid. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:07 am Post subject: |
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At uni jobs there are usually pay bands. One for Bachelor's, one for master's, one for doctor's. The most difference in salary I've seen is 2,000yuan. 1,000ish is more common. Sometimes they are advertised, sometimes not.
Not a huge difference but better than a kick in the pants.
More important for me is it helps you move up the food chain faster. If you actually plan this as a career that's a good thing. Law is a respected field here and education, in general, is put in fairly high regard. But also think of it from the school's perspective: they get to put you on their advertising and tell the parents they've got western teachers with doctor's degrees, not those chimps teaching at other schools.
I'm sure it would help with privates but no experience there. |
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Voyeur
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone asked or otherwise showed concern as to why a lawyer would be teaching ESL? Or perhaps post-2009, people understand these things better and nobody even thinks twice. My own perceptions on the issue may well be dated.
As for the value of a JD, I'm not sure that the actual value matters. All that matters is the perceived value--will it help you get a job. And I imagine that it will, to varying extents. The actual value is somewhat irrelevant as the holder will inevitably just have to try and find out. And even then, it may be difficult to determine which skills and advantages he has that are directly attributable to the JD program.
I;m unfamiliar with buravirgil's professional vs. academic argument and wouldn't mind seeing it elucidated, here or elsewhere. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Voyeur wrote: |
| Has anyone asked or otherwise showed concern as to why a lawyer would be teaching ESL? Or perhaps post-2009, people understand these things better and nobody even thinks twice. My own perceptions on the issue may well be dated. |
First question of the interview at 2 of 2 interviews. But I actually practiced which makes my situation different from Max's to some extent.
With American employers, they are sometimes suspicious of a JD but no bar membership. I doubt most Chinese employers have enough understanding of that system to be suspicious but you never know. |
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Voyeur
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, in ESL no one probably cares about the Bar. It's just the concern of "what secret thing is so wrong with them that they studied law and now have to teach ESL".
I wonder if you could service a niche LSAT prep market? |
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