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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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 Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: IN CHINA 2 MONTHS & UNI DIDN'T CHANGE F TO Z |
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| Cubism wrote: |
Here's some background.
I came in on an F visa. I went to apply (she said everything was ready to get a Z visa) & the Chinese Embassy said they'd have to give me an F visa for entry; but that would be fine. The recruiter promised that the FAO would change it immediately. Two months later, no visa. No bank account. They did pay me, after I hounded them for a week, and they did pay in full on the last possible day in the contract.
I'm retirement age, so this was my last shot. No other takers & now I'm really ready to call it quits after this ends, hopefully with 10 months wages. |
I'm a bit shocked if someone at a Chinese embassy told you it would be "fine" to come to China on an "F" visa knowing that you were coming for the purpose of employment. Still, if you say so, I'll believe it.
If you've been working on an "F', you've been working without a legal contract, no doubt about that. (I was in a similar situation, in fact came and started work on an "L", employer converted to an "F", then directly to Residence Permit and FEC, somehow skipping the "Z" visa altogether ... I never got a "Z" stamp in my passport. In any case, it worked out for me at the time, since I wound up with what I needed, and didn't get any hassle for the two months preceding).
Are you 65 now? Have you taught in China before? A friend and former colleague who came to China at the same time I did, in 2010, is still working there as far as I know. He was 60 then so must be 63 or 64 now. Having a foot in the door a few years earlier may make a big difference because they can evaluate if the FT is worth the additional "trouble" of the age thing.
What is the "official" max age limit for China now, anyway? In 2010, our employer told us it was 50 or 55, I think, so I'm a bit surprised that someone over 60 is even considered employable (no offense).
In any case, OP, it sounds like this job is a definite "non-starter" (or non-finisher). Good luck trying to get at least some walking money or airfare from them, but without a legal contract I think it will be tough going. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
In my nearly 12 years here I haven't heard of anyone with a residence permit (legal employment) being fined or deported because they worked somewhere else part time, and it's not clear if the part time work is actually illegal. Many contracts, mine included, say part time work is prohibited unless your employer gives permission. If your boss asks you to quit such work then you'd be wise to do so and not incur anyone's wrath. Any raids always seem to be aimed at cowboy outfits who exclusively hire tourists.
As for your scenario regarding the guy with the F or L visa, sure they can quit their job and remain here legally as a tourist, but how long is that going to last without any income? You can change jobs quickly enough to get a new revenue stream but then you're more likely to take the first job that comes along (without the chance to check the place out, who knows if you'll get paid on time or at all). I'll also add that many of the stories of serious exploitation on this forum usually begin with the words "I didn't have a Z visa........" |
Don't you need a second workbook in order to make the second employer legal? Which just about no one has, anywhere.
Surely the problems with pay can be entirely eliminated by insisting on been paid at the end of each working day? Read on here before that's how people normally handle their part time side jobs. There's no reason a potential employer wouldn't agree to that - unless they were planning to screw you of course and if they don't agree then don't take the job. |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kungfuman wrote: |
Don't worry about the douchebags who lecture you about being here illegally etc cause they are just douchebags.
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Agreed. After having two companies screw around with my release papers, one of them blackmailing me into moving out of the accommodation leaving me homeless, I'm starting to wonder if the illegals are the ones who have it right. Maybe I'm running a greater risk doing it legally than I would be if I did it illegally. |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Shanghai Noon wrote: |
| kungfuman wrote: |
Don't worry about the douchebags who lecture you about being here illegally etc cause they are just douchebags.
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Agreed. After having two companies screw around with my release papers, one of them blackmailing me into moving out of the accommodation leaving me homeless, I'm starting to wonder if the illegals are the ones who have it right. Maybe I'm running a greater risk doing it legally than I would be if I did it illegally. |
I concur because in my time in China I have done it both ways legal visa and f visa. The f visa offers much more freedom as there really is nothing your employer can do to keep you from quitting. My first job is Suzhou was at a horrible place - and EVERY teacher worked on a tourist visa or f visa and EVERY teacher - except for me- quit in the first few month. The place sucked big time. When my f visa was coming to an end - at about day 85 of a 90 day visa - they sent me to HK for a z visa - and they paid for it. Truthfully I was thinking of not getting the z visa and just staying for another 9o days on the f visa as the place was that bad.
Working "illegally" can have advantages really |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
I wasn't referring to not begin paid by the part time employer. Those ones are easy enough to get paid daily or weekly and if they don't the most you're out might be a few hundred 元. Working illegally is an invitation to a shady employer to not pay you your monthly salary on time or at all (no full time employer is going to pay you by the day). Are you prepared to not be paid at month's end and start listening to promises of "the salary will be paid next week" for weeks on end? Obviously things can go wrong or cubism wouldn't have started this thread, and there's plenty more like it on here. personally I don't care what visa people work on but when those same people start moaning about being ripped off later it's almost comical reminding them that they were warned. |
You're acting like those issues never happen with employers who do the correct visa paperwork - they do. 2 of my friends in Thailand worked for a private school, they got the correct documents, work permit, non-B visa etc. The schools still frequently paid late and one tried to screw them out of the final months pay. I've no doubt whatsoever the same stuff happens in China.
I've seen this school advertising on Dave's, and offering a Z visa (Happytown in Hainan). There was even a thread about what they did to this teacher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEIiyTxMtUI
Essentially they made her pay a security 'deposit' to go and visit her terminally ill father. If she was on an F visa she could have just turned round and told the boss to go f*ck himself. But bad treatment happens all across the SEA region, both in schools that have the correct papers and those that do not.
And again - part time work is illegal even on a Z visa and even if you have permission from your primary employer, unless you have a second workbook for the part time employer and are paying taxes. No one here has a problem with that sort of illegal work so at this point it's just where you feel like drawing the line. |
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jm21
Joined: 26 Feb 2008
Posts: 406
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
In my nearly 12 years here I haven't heard of anyone with a residence permit (legal employment) being fined or deported because they worked somewhere else part time, and it's not clear if the part time work is actually illegal. Many contracts, mine included, say part time work is prohibited unless your employer gives permission. If your boss asks you to quit such work then you'd be wise to do so and not incur anyone's wrath. Any raids always seem to be aimed at cowboy outfits who exclusively hire tourists.
As for your scenario regarding the guy with the F or L visa, sure they can quit their job and remain here legally as a tourist, but how long is that going to last without any income? You can change jobs quickly enough to get a new revenue stream but then you're more likely to take the first job that comes along (without the chance to check the place out, who knows if you'll get paid on time or at all). I'll also add that many of the stories of serious exploitation on this forum usually begin with the words "I didn't have a Z visa........" |
I've heard second-hand of someone getting deported for working at two universities at the same time.
I don't think the better schools will even let you work there without doing the proper visa. |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Alien abductee wrote: |
I wasn't referring to not begin paid by the part time employer. Those ones are easy enough to get paid daily or weekly and if they don't the most you're out might be a few hundred 元. Working illegally is an invitation to a shady employer to not pay you your monthly salary on time or at all (no full time employer is going to pay you by the day). Are you prepared to not be paid at month's end and start listening to promises of "the salary will be paid next week" for weeks on end? Obviously things can go wrong or cubism wouldn't have started this thread, and there's plenty more like it on here. personally I don't care what visa people work on but when those same people start moaning about being ripped off later it's almost comical reminding them that they were warned. |
You're acting like those issues never happen with employers who do the correct visa paperwork - they do. 2 of my friends in Thailand worked for a private school, they got the correct documents, work permit, non-B visa etc. The schools still frequently paid late and one tried to screw them out of the final months pay. I've no doubt whatsoever the same stuff happens in China. |
No, I'm not acting like these things don't happen when you have the correct visa. I'm acting like someone with a bit of experience by telling you that the probability of something going wrong - late or no pay, forced overtime, crappy living conditions, non payment of end contract bonus - goes way up when you're here illegally because (unlike those who are legal) your boss knows there's nothing (other than leaving) you can do about it.
| ESL104 wrote: |
I've seen this school advertising on Dave's, and offering a Z visa (Happytown in Hainan). There was even a thread about what they did to this teacher: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEIiyTxMtUI
Essentially they made her pay a security 'deposit' to go and visit her terminally ill father. |
No employer can force you to pay a fee, or block you from leaving China, unless you were foolish enough to give them your passport. The person who was being forced to pay up could have easily found out, by coming to a forum like this, by asking someone else, or by visiting the local PSB, that her boss could not do this.
| ESL104 wrote: |
| If she was on an F visa she could have just turned round and told the boss to go f*ck himself. |
You can do this regardless of visa. It's as simple as walking out the door.
| ESL104 wrote: |
| And again - part time work is illegal even on a Z visa and even if you have permission from your primary employer, unless you have a second workbook for the part time employer and are paying taxes. No one here has a problem with that sort of illegal work so at this point it's just where you feel like drawing the line. |
And again, if you're working part time and have a residence permit you are very unlikely (as in very low risk) to ever have problems. But if you're working on an L or F visa and cross somebody the wrong way then you might easily find yourself getting some unwanted attention.
Use the search function. Do a search in the job related forum for "illegal" and read some of the MANY threads on working with an F visa vs. Z visa. The overwhelming advice is don't do it. At any rate, from reading your posts you seem intent on working illegally, so give it a shot. It might work out. Or it might not. |
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ESL104
Joined: 27 Sep 2014
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ESL104 wrote: |
| Alien abductee wrote: |
I wasn't referring to not begin paid by the part time employer. Those ones are easy enough to get paid daily or weekly and if they don't the most you're out might be a few hundred 元. Working illegally is an invitation to a shady employer to not pay you your monthly salary on time or at all (no full time employer is going to pay you by the day). Are you prepared to not be paid at month's end and start listening to promises of "the salary will be paid next week" for weeks on end? Obviously things can go wrong or cubism wouldn't have started this thread, and there's plenty more like it on here. personally I don't care what visa people work on but when those same people start moaning about being ripped off later it's almost comical reminding them that they were warned. |
You're acting like those issues never happen with employers who do the correct visa paperwork - they do. 2 of my friends in Thailand worked for a private school, they got the correct documents, work permit, non-B visa etc. The schools still frequently paid late and one tried to screw them out of the final months pay. I've no doubt whatsoever the same stuff happens in China.
No, I'm not acting like these things don't happen when you have the correct visa. I'm acting like someone with a bit of experience by telling you that the probability of something going wrong - late or no pay, forced overtime, crappy living conditions, non payment of end contract bonus - goes way up when you're here illegally because (unlike those who are legal) your boss knows there's nothing (other than leaving) you can do about it. |
Of course, I don't think anyone reasonable would doubt that.
As a counterbalance though, I offer you the scheduling advantages, the (potential) pay advantages of working on an hourly basis rather than a salary basis, and the tax advantages.
Plus the 'threat' of leaving is quite a bit bigger - yes, you can get up and walk out on any visa in the world. But if you're on a Z visa you might find it difficult to stay in the country afterwards since your visa and residence permit is tied to your employer. The guy on the L or F visa can just get up and leave for a reason as small as he doesn't like the colour of the wallpaper in the office, and he'll still be able to stay in China afterwards.
| Alien abductee wrote: |
No employer can force you to pay a fee, or block you from leaving China, unless you were foolish enough to give them your passport. The person who was being forced to pay up could have easily found out, by coming to a forum like this, by asking someone else, or by visiting the local PSB, that her boss could not do this.
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Not everyone will know the full ins and outs of what employers can or cannot do. And I just posted the video to show that bad behaviour is practiced by many different schools, not just the ones with no licence to employ foreigners.
Over here, I've known people on full working visas get shafted, and coversly, people on tourist visas who get paid in full and on time each month, paid vacation as promised in the contract, and no forced overtime. If your boss is a dick, he's probably still going to be a dick no matter what stamps you have in your passport.
| Alien abductee wrote: |
| And again, if you're working part time and have a residence permit you are very unlikely (as in very low risk) to ever have problems. But if you're working on an L or F visa and cross somebody the wrong way then you might easily find yourself getting some unwanted attention. |
So let's say the cops raid a school (presuming that's how most teachers get busted, since they only really have proof if they catch you doing it). Are you telling me the teacher with a Z visa (but still working for a secondary employer illegally) will just be allowed to go on his merry way, with maybe a tiny slap on the wrist like a 500RMB fine or a 'don't do it again', while everyone else will get the full works of deportation and blacklisting from reentry?
Serious question btw.
| Alien abductee wrote: |
Use the search function. Do a search in the job related forum for "illegal" and read some of the MANY threads on working with an F visa vs. Z visa. The overwhelming advice is don't do it. At any rate, from reading your posts you seem intent on working illegally, so give it a shot. It might work out. Or it might not. |
I'm not 'intent' - but I don't see the harm in discussing such things and doing a cost-benefit analysis. |
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Zhejiang_Man
Joined: 23 Aug 2012
Posts: 123
Location: Zhejiang
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Information current as of last week:-
Reportedly due to the democracy protests, the China Visa Office in Hong Kong is not issuing any Z visas regardless of what paperwork an applicant has. Further, except for holders of Hong Kong residency cards, only 30 day L and M visas are being issued.
Last week, an applicant with a letter of invitation, a copy of the inviting Chinese company's business registration certificate, certificate of personal accident insurance and a complete & detailed itinerary was rejected for a 6 month, multiple entry F visa. He was told to return to his home country to apply for the visa.
Believe it or not! |
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kungfuman
Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| Zhejiang_Man wrote: |
Believe it or not! |
The wind is blowing on a certain direction... Subject to change of course  |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Cubism,
You've been at the FT game since 2008 (perhaps longer). Your posts always report some strange twist in your employment. By now, you should know how to become legally employed, how to avoid problems, etc.. Why are you still having problems? |
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GreatApe
Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 582
Location: South of Heaven and East of Nowhere
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: |
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I think Bud Powell asks a pretty good question.
I'd also like to know where the OP is located (which province)?
I spent 2 years working for an International high school in Guangdong and they had four teachers on-staff who were all aged 60 and above during my time there. The oldest guy on staff was 72-74 and still teaching and going strong. I'm still in contact with some friends at that school, and those older guys are still plugging away!
I don't know the OP's nationality or his qualifications, but a lot of the problems concerning age can be solved depending on the school / company you work for and the age-old economic maxim of Supply and Demand.
There are actually --believe it or not-- some schools out there who value an "older" teaching staff. There are other schools as well that will "take what they can get."
--GA |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| I have heard that it is easier to get your residence renewed if you are continuing with the same school. |
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Cubism
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 283
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
This episode created mountains of paperwork. Since I'm 66, it's mostly financial, so can't give specifics to you yet re job.
I was in Beijing at a military uni, which was a surprising backdrop. You'd think they'd be cautious about paperwork. Yes, I've been an ft for yrs but have always believed in getting other people's opinions, then acting on what they advise plus what I know.
I agree that the protests added tension.
I am making lemonade out of my lemons. Please answer these questions. I am not a troll, a recruiter etc. Just a writer, like many of you.
1 What surprised you most about working in China?
2 What did you think would be a problem that turned out not to be a problem?
3 Are you a senior cit, a single parent, a member of an ethnic group/nation & English isn't your mother tongue?
Thank you. More later. |
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True Blue
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:44 am Post subject: Re: ROADWALKER YOU'RE VERY SANE & THANKS THANKS THANKS |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| Cubism wrote: |
Not why I forgot that crucial issue, but you're right on. I will follow your advice. I agree that the age thing is increasingly insurmountable, esp. for new hires.
They only have 1 ft around at a time. The last one was 35 or so. They gave him similar treatment re visa. But he was the legal age to teach.
And I mentioned 'recruiter' in that the head of a dept. here 'recruited' me. She wrote me & did all the paperwork. The FAO stamped the contract and handed me my money last month.
OK, will do no more than drop by to see how things are going. Not one unfriendly word.
Otherwise, will focus on getting out in one piece. Many thanks. |
Are you owed an airfare allowance or anything similar?
If so be coy about your flight date and hold on to your final marks until you see your money.
Other posters who zero in on the visa issue fail to understand that for the older or under qualified FT there is an understandable temptation to chance it.
I don't believe this school has the right to hire foreigners, but their action of stamping the contract suggests they feel that they do have an employment relationship with OP. |
IMO... this is practical advice considering this is your last teaching gig. I would also suggest you look for a non-teaching position with a recruiter or somewhere the PSB won't be making random visits if you plan to stay in China. Working for a museum even as a tour guide for foreigners can get you a 1 year M visa. If they like you they will overlook the age issue. |
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