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Bahasa Indonesia Fluency Requirement
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In truth, many Indonesians don't use Indonesian properly either. Young Indonesians have a very slang-riddled style and routinely drop suffixes and prefixes from verbs too. "Mau ga?", "Ya udah"', "Lagi ngapain?" and other grammatically questionable stuff is par for the course in Jakarta.

Anyway, the real question is whether the Indonesian government will go through with this. The plan was originally devised in 2003 and it has been dropped before. It is possible that Jokowi will see sense and back down. Or the regulation may be just a ploy to extract even more bribes from investors. The test will be whether job ads start mentioning "Bahasa Indonesian fluency" as a requirement in the coming months. You can be assured the pool of possible candidates will be MUCH smaller if they do!
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
In truth, many Indonesians don't use Indonesian properly either. Young Indonesians have a very slang-riddled style and routinely drop suffixes and prefixes from verbs too. "Mau ga?", "Ya udah"', "Lagi ngapain?" and other grammatically questionable stuff is par for the course in Jakarta.

What passes for "proper" is actually highly contextual.

The point (function) of language is comprehensible communication, and one of its sub-functions is communication which is comprehensible within a certain group or sub-group, yet incomprehensible or at least confusing or "jarring" to many outside that group (hence the use of insider slang and / or "coded language" within groups and subcultures).

I don't hang out with Jakarta teen hipsters, nor with the President in his Palace, just with "common folks" at a relatively lower level of socio-economic status and education. Oh, wait ... that's somewhat true for the President, too. Wink


Quote:
Or the regulation may be just a ploy to extract even more bribes from investors.

This is at least the second time this speculation has been mentioned in this thread (third?) ... it could become repetitive.

Wait ...

Quote:
it is probably just a way to extract more bribes


Quote:
More likely this is another weapon to use against schools in the extraction of money


Quote:
This may just be a ploy for Manpower to extract even more bribes from the industry


Quote:
Or the regulation may be just a ploy to extract even more bribes from investors

... fourth time, all from different posts, all by the same author, all without substantiation of the claim and its "probability". Overkill?
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course language is contextual. But then in my original post the suggested context of the archetypal phrase, "Satu Bintang lagi" ("one more Bintang beer"), was an expat who couldn't speak Indonesian probably. Yet you had to leap in and add that this grammar was a "kesalahan" (error), which, judging from the original context, was entirely the point.

Furthermore, I am not sure who doesn't know that the "appropriacy" of language depends on social context. It is one of the most elementary points covered in the Cambridge TKT (Teaching Knowledge Test). Anyone who doesn't realise this properly shouldn't be teaching. What I fail to understand is why every single post on every topic becomes an opportunity for some users to lecture about grammar, first in English and now in Indonesian.

As for the Bahasa Indonesian Fluency Test, it is being widely discussed on expat forums. The thread on Living in Indonesia website is already into its 7th page of debate. This really is a big deal which people need to know about. I do greatly enjoy Mysterytrain's attacks on my grammar and motives, thread after thread, however. They are so reassuringly predictable. Razz Mad Razz

As for the "unsubstantiated claims", I used the modal verbs "may" and "might, which indicate that the issue is not certain. However, I have been in schools numerous times in Indonesia when Immigration or Manpower did raids and the matter was settled by the payment of a bribe. In one case, Rp5 million changed hands, which was then around $600.

Are you really pretending to be shocked that corruption is rife in Indonesia? I note, for example, that the National Police Chief was just caught with $6 million in his bank account by the KPK. (See the Jakarta Globe and Post for updates). Worst of all, however, is the Dec. 22nd Jakarta Post report "KPK Discloses Education Leakage", in which it was revealed that over Rp 1 trillion per year was being stolen from teachers' salaries and allowances by the Education MInistry, as well as stealing from programs for poor kids. That's why I am suspicious about the Indonesian authorities.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
Of course language is contextual. But then in my original post the suggested context of the archetypal phrase, "Satu Bintang lagi" ("one more Bintang beer"), was an expat who couldn't speak Indonesian probably. Yet you had to leap in and add that this grammar was a "kesalahan" (error), which, judging from the original context, was entirely the point.

Au contraire, Bradment, I think it was you who missed the point of my post, which was not (in this case) to correct your grammar. It's not always about you and your grammar, you know. Wink

Quote:
Furthermore, I am not sure who doesn't know that the "appropriacy" of language depends on social context. It is one of the most elementary points covered in the Cambridge TKT (Teaching Knowledge Test). Anyone who doesn't realise this properly shouldn't be teaching. What I fail to understand is why every single post on every topic becomes an opportunity for some users to lecture about grammar, first in English and now in Indonesian.

zzzzzZZZZZZ ... okay, you're right, it is boring.

Quote:
As for the Bahasa Indonesian Fluency Test, it is being widely discussed on expat forums. The thread on Living in Indonesia website is already into its 7th page of debate. This really is a big deal which people need to know about.

WoW! Really? "Living in Indonesia"? Seven pages?!?!? Now I really am impressed ................... not.

So if you don't repeat your premise ... sorry, supposition ... that this regulation MAY have been written and (re)introduced with the motive of extortion in every post you make in the thread, people might not "know about it" or understand it properly ... is that correct?

Quote:
As for the "unsubstantiated claims", I used the modal verbs "may" and "might, which indicate that the issue is not certain. However, I have been in schools numerous times in Indonesia when Immigration or Manpower did raids and the matter was settled by the payment of a bribe. In one case, Rp5 million changed hands, which was then around $600.

Shocked

Mother, "may" I take this bribe? Why bother repeating four times in four posts on one issue that something "may" or "might" be the case, Bradley?

I think that Earth's moon "might" be made of Play-Doh, and the sky "may" be falling ... now, if I just repeat those ideas to others, over and over ... (shrug)

Quote:
Are you really pretending to be shocked that corruption is rife in Indonesia?

Shocked No pretending here, I AM shocked. No, I kid, I kid ... Brad, the fact that corruption is rife in the land is one thing. You seem to be implying, that is to say, you "may" be saying that the regulation "may" have been conceived and developed, or at the least re-introduced, with the sole motivation of extortion ... that's a bridge of cynicism too far even for me, sorry, but then again, you "may" be right (x infinity).

Brad, I am married to a WNI. I have an Indonesian family-in-law. They're certainly far from perfect (yes, even my wife ... but don't tell her I said so, okay?), but none, to the best of my knowledge, are involved in korupsi (on the taking end), including the ones who are in the military.

I happen to believe there are some Indonesians in the government who are idealistic and actually believe the laws and regulations they conceive and write, misguided or not, "may" help to make the country a better one, not just that they will line their pockets again. The other kind? Sure, they're still there, tentu saja. I still think your oft-repeated accusation ... sorry, conjecture ... doesn't really bear the superfluous "reps" gracefully.

Quote:
I do greatly enjoy Mysterytrain's attacks on my grammar and motives, thread after thread, however. They are so reassuringly predictable. Razz Mad Razz

Laughing You couldn't possibly enjoy our little exchanges more than I do, Brad. Where's Janet, by the way?
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I stated, I have seen Manpower do raids aimed at extracting bribes before. The department in North Jakarta is notorious and they really were quite relentless at one school where I worked. A friend who worked at a school down the road had the same deal there too, with raids that ended in bribes being paid and a lot of unpleasantness.

There was also the matter of the Rp 1 trillion stolen by the Education Ministry in 20 different regencies, as revealed by the Anti-Corruption Comission late last year. See the article "KPK Discloses Education Budget Leakage" from 22nd December edition of Jakarta Post. Far from my views being based on "unsubstantiated claims", there is hard evidence that corruption in the education sector has been massive.

Actually, many Indonesians are extremely concerned about corruption and roundly condemn it. The reason Jokowi got elected was partly because he was perceived as clean and free from scandal. Many Indonesian professionals are very anti-corruption and vote for reform-based candidates. If you think I am saying that all public servants are corrupt, no I am not. I never said that. Many teachers do hard work for minimal pay, for example.

However, Indonesia does rate as one of the most corrupt countries in Asia overall in Transparency International rankings, and there are hundreds and hundreds of cases before the corruption courts. The problem is very serious and widespread and both presidential candidates in 2014 spoke of the need to end corruption (though I, like many liberals, don't trust Prabowo).

Anyway, we have got off topic, which is the Bahasa Indonesia Fluency Test. Manpower says it will be coming in February 2015, but the test isn't ready yet. In their press release they spoke of the need to protect Indonesian workers, which suggests that this policy is a way of keeping foreign workers out. I have a hard to believing that they will actually go through with this but would be interested in hearing other views. Unless the test was very simple, it would surely make life very difficult for schools.

Which school has the time and money to train someone in Bahasa Indonesia before they start their actual teaching duties? It seems completely unreasonable to me. Do you have an opinion about the proposed test, Mysterytrain?
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:

There was also the matter of the Rp 1 trillion stolen by the Education Ministry in 20 different regencies, as revealed by the Anti-Corruption Comission late last year. See the article "KPK Discloses Education Budget Leakage" from 22nd December edition of Jakarta Post. Far from my views being based on "unsubstantiated claims", there is hard evidence that corruption in the education sector has been massive.

Bradley, Bradley ... where have I contested the existence of corruption ... yes, even "massive" corruption ... in the education sector? Did you even read my post, or are you responding to something else?

Quote:
Actually, many Indonesians are extremely concerned about corruption and roundly condemn it. The reason Jokowi got elected was partly because he was perceived as clean and free from scandal. Many Indonesian professionals are very anti-corruption and vote for reform-based candidates. If you think I am saying that all public servants are corrupt, no I am not. I never said that. Many teachers do hard work for minimal pay, for example.

However, Indonesia does rate as one of the most corrupt countries in Asia overall in Transparency International rankings, and there are hundreds and hundreds of cases before the corruption courts. The problem is very serious and widespread and both presidential candidates in 2014 spoke of the need to end corruption (though I, like many liberals, don't trust Prabowo).

When did I say that Indonesians are not concerned about corruption? Of course they are ... WNI suffer more from corruption than foreigners do.

I've lived in Indonesia for the past three and a half years, you don't need to explain the Presidential election to me, but thanks anyway ... I swear, it's like debating a Wiki article. Smile

Quote:
Anyway, we have got off topic, which is the Bahasa Indonesia Fluency Test. Manpower says it will be coming in February 2015, but the test isn't ready yet. In their press release they spoke of the need to protect Indonesian workers, which suggests that this policy is a way of keeping foreign workers out.

Wait, now, after stating in four different posts practically the same sentence that this regulation "may" be or "most likely" is purely motivated by a desire to extort schools, you are suddenly changing horses?

Now the policy is motivated by a desire to keep foreigners out? Which one is it? How are they gonna extort them, if they succeed in keeping them out?

Quote:
Do you have an opinion about the proposed test, Mysterytrain?

Why, yes, yes, I believe I do. Very Happy
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is something a little dishonest in the way you debate, Mysterytrain. You claim, for example, that I am making "unsubstantiated claims" about the likelihood of corruption as a factor in this decision. In response I support my case and give some examples and then you say there is no need to be a "Wiki article". Yet it was you who criticised my lack of "substantiated claims" earlier. Along with the grammar correction and so on, it all comes off as a bit troll-like. After all the keystrokes you have dedicated to your posts, it seems odd not to voice an opinion about whether this test is a good thing. In a way, it means that everything you are saying is off topic and on a tangent.

You did make one valid point I want to address though. You said that I had changed horses from claiming that this Bahasa Indonesia test was about creating opportunities for corruption to claiming that it is about keeping foreigners out.

I would like to suggest that based on the comments on Dave's about the English degree requirement, both are possible at the same time. Many users have pointed out that schools are having a hard time getting approval for teachers these days. The policy has led to a reduction in the number of expat faces at the "language mills". The Indonesian government has even issued press releases boasting of the reduction of foreign workers and even claimed last week that they have protected Indonesian workers from "an onslaught" of foreign labour.

Yet numerous users have also complained that the process is tainted by corruption. Some have complained that Diknas played favourites between the language schools, approving teachers without English degrees at some chains and rejecting them at others. In other words, the English degree requirement did lead to a big reduction of teachers, but Diknas, who are now subject to anti-corruption investigations, did engage in some illegal shenanigans too.

In this case Manpower has stated that the Bahasa Indonesia fluency test is partly about protecting Indonesian workers from foreign competition. That is on the record. (I will provide details of articles from the local and Indonesian press, if you wish). My suspicion is that exceptions will be made for some schools / businesses because the rule of law is weak in Indonesia and it often goes that way. In Indonesia new regulations are often an excuse to ask for "presents". Believe me, I will be happy if the Bahasa Indonesia test is implemented fairly and consistently, but I have my doubts. It is naive to think that things are going to change overnight.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
There is something a little dishonest in the way you debate, Mysterytrain. You claim, for example, that I am making "unsubstantiated claims" about the likelihood of corruption as a factor in this decision. In response I support my case and give some examples and then you say there is no need to be a "Wiki article". Yet it was you who criticised my lack of "substantiated claims" earlier. Along with the grammar correction and so on, it all comes off as a bit troll-like.

"Troll-like", eh? ( I believe "trollish" is an actual word, at least in common parlance it's certainly used, and sounds much better than "troll-like", in my opinion.)

Sticks and stones, Brad. You can call me dishonest if you like (I happen to disagree.) And I could say the same about the way you "answer" my complaints, in this thread and in others (hint: you usually don't really answer them at all).

None of your elaboration is going to be considered "substantiation" of your supposition that the regulation was designed or implemented as an extortion scheme.

Documenting the existence of corruption within the relevant sector proves the motivation behind the regulation? I don't think so. It''s irrelevant to the point. You don't address my point (that you repeatedly make this "conjecture" without explaining why it is "most likely" or "probably" just a money-making scheme, or offering any evidence to substantiate the ... "idea"), because you can't, pure and simple. So you spout off about the existence of wide-scale corruption in the country and other stuff that everyone knows about. Piffle.

Quote:
You did make one valid point I want to address though. You said that I had changed horses from claiming that this Bahasa Indonesia test was about creating opportunities for corruption to claiming that it is about keeping foreigners out.

I would like to suggest that based on the comments on Dave's about the English degree requirement, both are possible at the same time. Many users have pointed out that schools are having a hard time getting approval for teachers these days. The policy has led to a reduction in the number of expat faces at the "language mills". The Indonesian government has even issued press releases boasting of the reduction of foreign workers and even claimed last week that they have protected Indonesian workers from "an onslaught" of foreign labour.

Yet numerous users have also complained that the process is tainted by corruption. Some have complained that Diknas played favourites between the language schools, approving teachers without English degrees at some chains and rejecting them at others. In other words, the English degree requirement did lead to a big reduction of teachers, but Diknas, who are now subject to anti-corruption investigations, did engage in some illegal shenanigans too.

Shocked

Every "process" in Indonesia in which the government plays a regulatory role is tainted by corruption, Brad. That does not mean that regulations are introduced with the sole or primary motivation of corruption and extortion, does it? No. You still haven't justified repeating four times in four different posts on this thread that this regulation "may" just be an extortion scheme. Sorry.

Quote:
In this case Manpower has stated that the Bahasa Indonesia fluency test is partly about protecting Indonesian workers from foreign competition. That is on the record. (I will provide details of articles from the local and Indonesian press, if you wish).

I know about that, Brad. It's all public knowledge, you're not the only one who can access it. Yes, there is a definite element of "labor protectionism" within Manpower regulations, and however we "may" feel about it, the Indonesian government has the authority to make such regulations based on the rationales and philosophies prevalent at the time. It's always been that way, and always will. Governments swing back and forth between protectionism, free trade, etc, and try to find a balance that it thinks is in the country's best interests. There are huge disagreements between those in the government. Internal battles are fought, in the legislature, within ministries, etc. Same in the USA or UK, same in any country. So what?

Quote:
My suspicion is that exceptions will be made for some schools / businesses because the rule of law is weak in Indonesia and it often goes that way. In Indonesia new regulations are often an excuse to ask for "presents". Believe me, I will be happy if the Bahasa Indonesia test is implemented fairly and consistently, but I have my doubts. It is naive to think that things are going to change overnight.

No, it's not going to be implemented consistently or fairly, Brad. Ini Indonesia, 'bang. Of course "exceptions will be made". That's "life as we know it".

Look: EF consistently (well, at least until recently, as I've heard) has been able to continue obtaining IMTA and KITAS for its teachers, in spite of the degree requirement, experience requirement, etc, and the fact that some of their teachers "may" not meet all of these requirements. Yet some other language school chains cannot. How is that? Gee, I dunno ... so there is no reason to think that it will be magically different when it comes to the Bahasa fluency requirement, true. So what?

I, along with my wife, her family, and millions of Indonesians, as well as expats, are guardedly optimistic that things are starting to change and that the pace of change will accelerate, but it will take a long time and it will not come quickly, nor will corruption or "selectivity" ever disappear completely from the landscape.

Quote:
After all the keystrokes you have dedicated to your posts, it seems odd not to voice an opinion about whether this test is a good thing. In a way, it means that everything you are saying is off topic and on a tangent.

I don't really give a flying crab's apple if it seems "odd" to you, Bradley. We all meet things we see as odd every day. I don't have an obligation to voice an opinion on anything nor one to refrain from doing so. I am not restricted from commenting in this thread, whether I offer an opinion about the regulation or not. Let's get that straight, right off the bat.

But if you insist.

I think that the government of Indonesia has a vested interest in controlling and monitoring, within reason, the entry and exit of foreign citizens and their activities within its borders, certainly including employment.

I think that some degree of expectation and, yes, even requirement of foreign citizens who come here to work, to make an effort to learn the primary, national language on a functional level is not unreasonable.

I think that for foreign workers to need to pass a test showing a functional grasp of Bahasa "dasar", beyond the ability to order food in a warung or tell a tukang becak or taxi driver to turn left, right, or go straight ahead, is not unreasonable and can indeed be seen as desirable.

I think that if the test is really at "TOEFL level", that is over the top. That is to say, if foreign workers are actually expected to achieve fluency in the language, even within one or two years of staying in RI, this is unreasonable, in my opinion.

I think that IF the regulation is actually expected to be met BEFORE IMTA and KITAS are issued, as a prerequisite, this is not only unreasonable, but impractical, unlikely to be met in a huge majority of cases, and a bit absurd.

But let's wait until the dust from Mount Sinabung, etc, clears, and we can see this thing more clearly as it will manifest in reality. As of now, we don't really know.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I appreciate your clear, coherent explanation of your opinion about Bahasa Indonesia testing. I think it is a good thing to have the 'pro' side of the case made on here.

In response to that I would add that no other country in Asia has a language test for expats and this could will just make investors warier of Indonesia. It is a considerable burden on people to insist that they have to study Indonesian intensively while doing their real jobs too.

But I do accept your general point. The Indonesian government does have the right to control who comes to Indonesia and the conditions on which they come. My prediction is that this regulation will be the virtual end for expat teachers in informal schools if it is seriously implemented, but expats don't have a right to insist that Indonesia lets them in.

I suspect the main focus of this is not teachers anyway but the big end of town such as multinational corporations and mining firms and so on, but teachers will end up being a casualty of it. To me, it seems like nationalistic posturing and I doubt it will help Indonesia, but experience has taught that the Indonesian government are deaf to the opinions of expats anyway. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
I appreciate your clear, coherent explanation of your opinion about Bahasa Indonesia testing. I think it is a good thing to have the 'pro' side of the case made on here.

You are most gracious, your eminence. Smile

Quote:
no other country in Asia has a language test for expats and this could will just make investors warier of Indonesia. It is a considerable burden on people to insist that they have to study Indonesian intensively while doing their real jobs too.

My prediction is that this regulation will be the virtual end for expat teachers in informal schools if it is seriously implemented, but expats don't have a right to insist that Indonesia lets them in.

I suspect the main focus of this is not teachers anyway but the big end of town such as multinational corporations and mining firms and so on, but teachers will end up being a casualty of it. To me, it seems like nationalistic posturing and I doubt it will help Indonesia, but experience has taught that the Indonesian government are deaf to the opinions of expats anyway. It will be interesting to see how this one plays out.

I think we can agree that English teachers working for relatively low wages like most of those in the informal sector (language schools) are in no way the "primary target" of this and other regulations, to the extent that they are indeed devised or employed as a means to exclude foreign workers.

And it is somewhat ironic. Indonesia does need foreign workers, to some extent, to do work that WNI are npt yet sufficiently trained or skilled to do themselves and to help with training local workers in those skills. I think that idea is generally accepted by most, even by most Indonesians including those in government. Obviously, the degree varies. But those in the government who may think that this "urgent need" and subsequent dependence on foreign workers, their skills and knowledge, is over-exaggerated, also have a point.

There are Indonesian colleagues, English teachers, in my own workplace, at least one or two, whose skill and fluency in the language rival my own (and I'm no slouch, if I may say so modestly), whose knowledge of grammar and usage is in some cases superior to mine, and whose teacher training and pedagogical skills are far superior to my own. They may certainly have had the benefit of learning some of that knowledge and fluency from working with other native English speakers and maybe even a bit of it from me, but most of it they acquired in Indonesia, from study with Indonesian teachers, and from self-study and practice.

Are "we" really as indispensable as we think we are? I think it is a fair question to pose, and I really don't know the answer.

There are also other native speakers of English teaching in Indonesia, without a doubt, who are much better trained as teachers than I am, much more knowledgeable and more skilled, and there are also many who ... well, I'm reminded of someone who posted a thread on the Living In Indonesia forum about a problem and started off by saying "I was hired as a native speaker at this school ...", which is exactly right. She was hired to be a "native speaker" by a language school. She was not hired as a teacher. She had absolutely no qualifications nor experience as a teacher, and very possibly absolutely no aptitude to match. She was "hired as a native speaker" simply because she had the right kind of passport, could state her name in a simple sentence in English with minimal mistakes, and had a "bule" face.

Is that enough? Personally, and it may sound a bit "sombong" or snobbish, but I think it is valid, I think that the government of RI should make a special fluency test for any foreign worker who would be brought in or hired to teach or train anyone in English, including every "native speaker" with passport from the "right countries": a fluency test IN ENGLISH.

Believe me, I have spent enough time and received enough of my education in my native country to know that it is no guarantee of having anything close to "mastery" of the language. In fact, it in no way guarantees even "competence" or "intelligibility", and I'm not talking about teaching, I'm just talking about "speaking, reading, writing" in the language. This is a "sad but true" fact that foreign governments unfortunately have failed to recognize or address for a long time in regards to EFL, though I think they are starting to pick up the ball, or at least keep an eyeball on it as it rolls around on the floor.

We can't fail to acknowledge the elephant in the room, you are right about that too, Obiwankinobi. And that of course is politics. You're right when you say that a lot of this comes from "nationalistic posturing", and let's not forget: Jokowi won the Presidency, but Prabowo and his supporters won the legislature. If Prabowo had taken it all, it would be a LOT worse.

As I've said, I'm not against a "reasonable" requirement for foreign workers to learn and demonstrate a "reasonable", basic proficiency in the native (local) national language.

This has been on the books in a vaguely worded form for quite some time, as "atlantis" pointed out on the LIIEF. It has apparently met with a re-invigorated "will to implement", and yes, I think that has a lot to do with politics.

It seems like, if rumors are true and things go ahead as stated, this will have transgressed the bounds of what I can consider "reasonable", in which case I cannot be said to be a "proponent" or supporter of the move.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds very reasonable and I think you make many good points. I don't want to take issue with any of what you said, but I wanted to follow on from some of your remarks about Native Speakers in Indonesia.

In my experience of Indonesia, the demand for Native Speakers comes from customers. This is the case in both the "language mills" and in what used to be called National Plus schools. It is very common that parents will come in and insist that they want "Native Speakers". I agree with you that local teachers will often know a lot more about grammar than Native Speakers, but it seems that 'bules' still have a degree of glamour for many Indonesians.

This is partly about product differentiation too. A couple of years ago local students could still get 3 months tuition in English at LIA for a mere Rp 500,000. LIA only employs local teachers and they tend to drill their students in grammar. Now when the chains such as Wall Street are charging many times more than that price- perhaps ten times or more per month- then customers expect something 'extra' for their money, and part of that 'extra' has been a Native Speaker.

If the government made it impossible for language schools to hire Native Speakers, it may be harder for the places that charge more to justify their prices. Perhaps they could market themselves based on better-trained local teachers or better facilities or whatever, but it would be a hard sell with many customers. By making it hard to hire Native Speakers, the government is undermining one of the main selling-points of many schools, which is bound to make life tough for them.

Perhaps the cult of the Native Speaker is overblown and irrational, but the perception among many learners is that Native Speakers are better, so cutting off the supply of them will surely cause havoc for some schools. Customers may decide just to save their money and go to LIA.
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Monkeyhijau



Joined: 05 Jul 2009
Posts: 3
Location: MONTERREY, MEXICO

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:02 am    Post subject: Nails in coffin Reply with quote

Tazz wrote:
If this comes into force it will be another nail in the Indonesian ESL coffin...


I quite agree. And not just for ESL teachers. They're just getting more and more difficult over granting visas to foreigners. Probably because of that strange feeling they have that foreigners are the cause of all woes. I loved Indonesia and really miss the place and its people but I'm glad I left in 2013. And 60 is ridiculously young (haahaa) to write us off!
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Listerine



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Bloomberg article in The Jakarta Globe the other day about how restrictively nationalistic Indonesia has become for foreigners wishing to work there. They claimed the requirements for an ESL gig are already the toughest in Asia and getting progressively more difficult.

I can't get the Globe to load on my computer, so here's the link for the same article in The Bangkok Post....

http://www.bangkokpost.com/print/478522/

Some highlights....

Quote:
An English degree, a teaching certificate, five years of experience and an HIV test from your country of origin. That’s all you need to get a job with a starting salary equal to 39,000 baht ($1,200) a month in Indonesia.

With native-language English teachers needing to fulfil a laundry list of requirements to get a work permit, commercial schools are short of teachers.

"These are the most stringent conditions that are applied for English teachers in the world, hands down," said Nina Wexler, an American who owns two schools in the city of Solo. "Out of 100 applicants, maybe five qualify. And chances are they will end up taking higher-paid jobs in other countries."


Quote:
Commercial language schools, which employ foreign teachers to work alongside local instructors, are among the worst affected.

Indonesia is the only country in Asia that requires foreign English teachers to have an English-related degree and five years experience, according to data compiled by the country's Association of Foreign Language Institutes.

.......

English First, which operates globally and runs 66 schools across Indonesia, found only 215 instructors who were qualified out of 2,205 prospective candidates in 2014, said Juli Simatupang, the company's director of corporate affairs. Of those only 26 joined the company, she said.


Quote:
The government is pressing ahead with a plan to require foreigners to pass an Indonesian-language test before getting a job. Such a law was needed because other countries require mostly low-skilled Indonesian migrant workers to learn local languages before they depart, Manpower Minister Hanif Dhakiri told reporters in Jakarta on Feb 15.

"But foreigners can come here and all they can manage in Indonesian is 'good morning' and 'thank you' and then they work for years and take up strategic positions," said Mr Dhakiri, whose mother was a migrant worker in Saudi Arabia for six years when he was a child. "Well, that's not acceptable. It's not fair."


Nice to see that the impending language requirements aren't being implemented as a way to actually benefit anyone, rather just out of some childish, bitter nationalism. Dhakiri's pembantu Mumsy couldn't communicate with her Saudi overlords and was required to learn either Arab or English in order to understand them telling her to close the fridge in 50 degree desert heat and not to wipe her bum with her hand in public, therefore all guest workers to Indonesia should have to learn Indonesian just to make things "acceptable" and "fair". At the end of the day the main reason the "low-skilled" Indon workers are required to learn the lingo of their destination country is simply that outside perhaps Malaysia, Singapore, Timor Leste and one or two nearby cities (Darwin?) you've got sweet f*ck all chance of meeting anyone who can speak your largely useless language.

Mandatory Bahasa requirements for *English* teachers are largely pointless since on a daily basis they are surrounded by locals who either already speak near fluent English, or are as keen as possible to use their English whenever they get the chance. It might be different of you were going to work as a logger in Kalimantan or shark fin fisherman in Sumba, but for English teachers, doctors (who from memory were at the butt end of similar requirements back in 2009 or so) it seems to make about as much sense as the "Prostitution Strictly Prohibited" sign in BATS.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listerine wrote:
Dhakiri's pembantu Mumsy couldn't communicate with her Saudi overlords and was required to learn either Arab or English in order to understand them telling her to close the fridge in 50 degree desert heat and not to wipe her bum with her hand in public, [snip] At the end of the day the main reason the "low-skilled" Indon workers are required to learn the lingo of their destination country is simply that outside perhaps Malaysia, Singapore, Timor Leste and one or two nearby cities (Darwin?) you've got sweet f*ck all chance of meeting anyone who can speak your largely useless language.


Wahduuu, 'bang! Kau bicara bicara jelek sekali lho!

Having read your two recent posts in this forum, I can't help being curious whether you actually consider this kind of gratuitously acerbic negative stereotyping to be a meaningful contribution to the discussion?
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Listerine



Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Wahduuu, 'bang! Kau bicara bicara jelek sekali lho!


I doubt Dumb-kiri and his inglorious family deserve much better.

Listerine wrote:
Dhakiri's pembantu Mumsy couldn't communicate with her Saudi overlords and was required to learn either Arab or English in order to understand them telling her to close the fridge in 50 degree desert heat and not to wipe her bum with her hand in public. At the end of the day the main reason the "low-skilled" Indon workers are required to learn the lingo of their destination country is simply that outside perhaps Malaysia, Singapore, Timor Leste and one or two nearby cities (Darwin?) you've got sweet f*ck all chance of meeting anyone who can speak your largely useless language.


Would love to know why *you* think Indons are required to learn the language of their host countries be they in Saudi, Korea etc??.
Simply not "acceptable" or "fair" as doodle bum claims, or as a result of their lingo being about as globally useful as other linguistic powerhouses like Oromo and Cebuano. All as useFUL (better? Rolling Eyes) as *beep* on a bullfrog once one leaves their native region.

Care to make any comments on the actual gist of the article, or prefer to just squabble about butthurt and irrelevances like you have for much of the previous two pages of this thread?

Quote:
Having read your two recent posts in this forum, I can't help being curious whether you actually consider this kind of gratuitously acerbic negative stereotyping to be a meaningful contribution to the discussion?


Aww u hurt my e-feelings.
Perhaps about as meaningful a contribution as endlessly replying to people in bahasa on an English speaking discussion forum? We get it, you speak it, big whoop, you're not the only one, hardly helpful to those who don't and are looking for useful, relevant info now though, is it? What's my *other* recent post? The "Sahid" one? Sorry if you think my hotel review was not "acceptable" or "fair", dear Dhakiri. Spades being spades and all that, luv.


Last edited by Listerine on Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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