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Making it Work while Teaching on a University Salary
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mw182006



Joined: 10 Dec 2012
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
mw182006 wrote:
Weird, I make 6k/mo teaching 9 hours a week and live just fine. I love these wackos that pop in from time to time to tell us how to live our lives and that we're all doing it wrong if we're not exactly like them.


Awesome long term future you've got going here.



Who the hell are you to comment on my future? You don't know how old I am, how much money I made before ESL and what my bank accounts hold. Get bent.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

People who say it is illegal work, and not paying tax blah blah blah are daft. When in Rome... You should NEVER behave like you would in your own country, cos it isn't the way it works! People always say you should respect the culture and try and fit in... well cash in hand is what the Chinese do - restaurants, markets, taxis without meters etc etc.


Awesome philosophy. Just move to another country and it absolves you from all responsibility for being a decent human being. Rolling Eyes
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Deats



Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What has it got to do with being a decent human being?

I'd say the majority of ESL teachers get paid cash in hand from their employers. My old uni paid me directly into a bank and I paid tax on that salary. Were the other teachers in my city therefore bad humans for getting cash in hand? When they had no choice? But they clearly understood that their school was cheating the tax man. They were part of the crime. If their school paid tax, who would have lost? The teacher, cos the school would have paid them less.

Also, where do you think tax goes? Why do you think Chinese people are so happy to avoid paying tax? Because their politicians pocket vast amounts of money. You may have seen, there have been a few corruption scandals recently Wink So why declare earnings that Chinese people wouldn't and even if I had it wouldn't have helped the country, but another corrupt politician.

Saying you have lived in China, I find it staggering to believe that you have no clue how the country works.

Next time you get in a taxi and the driver doesn't turn the meter on, you have been part of a crime and YOU are a terrible human being. Next time you buy some groceries from a small shop and don't get a receipt YOU are a criminal. Just remember these facts, and maybe you won't insist on being so sanctimonious next time.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not my fault, it's the system, politicians waste it all, everyone else does it etc.. etc.. heard it all before in my own country too.

Besides I never said not paying your taxes makes you a terrible person, I said paying them makes you a decent one. In fact you're a fairly typical human, a bit greedy a bit selfish, someone who wouldn't pay their taxes if they could get away with it. And before you start whining about I have no right to judge you etc... I'm doing it because you were boasting about your lack of citizenship on here and trying to influence others instead of having the good grace to be ashamed.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bograt wrote:
It's not my fault, it's the system, politicians waste it all, everyone else does it etc.. etc.. heard it all before in my own country too.


I hear you. People feel it is fine to relinquish all morals, well, because they do. If they all jumped off a bridge would you do it, too? Words of wisdom there. You cannot gauge yourself based on others, only yourself.

One example, I am a smoker, but I always find a place away from others to smoke. I have seen Chinese teachers smoking in the classroom, but I was shocked when a fellow USian walked into a classroom smoking. Luckily, no students were in there, he was meeting me for an exam (30min before). I asked him what the ----, he said they all do it. "They" do it so you need to/should. Just the other day I went outside at the break to smoke, I realized I had forgotten my phone. I saw a student by the stairs and asked him to get it for me. He was happy and said, "you wont go in because you're smoking." I am happy to say that is exactly why I wouldn't (not so happy about the smoking part but that is not for this board).

Another example is driving. I know many people who drive here and most are great, but I know a few who have given up. "They" drive like this so I need/should, also. Let me out of your car please. I ride a bike to work everyday, so I see what traffic looks like.

Why would it be good to emulate such stupidity. It is one thing to be respectful it is another thing to mimic and act like you do it because "they" do.

Edit: I am addressing morality here, paying taxes is in most cases immoral in my opinion. I do not wish to promote a state I do not really support. I have the same feeling in my home country. This is a debate for another thread though. Maybe someone can start a "do you feel comfortable paying taxes to the PRC" thread.


Last edited by wangdaning on Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Deats



Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just a realist. I know where the money goes. I may as well just throw it down the gutter. Also, teaching privately is technically illegal, so I couldn't have paid tax even if I wanted. What I do know, is my tuition helped several students get entry into foreign schools and universities. When my wife and I left we had a huge entourage of families and their kids accompany us to the airport. So do I feel bad for not paying some tax to a corrupt gvnt when I have helped shape some people's futures? Certainly not. My actions have caused way more good than harm. I charged less than these families would have paid to schools - only 100RMB an hour at the beginning. I gave families who couldn't afford to send their kids to private schools a chance to develop an incredibly important skill.

I'd rather keep my money and spend it in local shops, restaurants, etc or donate some money to buskers, charities etc.

I hope you cheat and lie in China, because that is the social norm. If you don't, then you are a bad person. You are not respecting local customs. Or do you pick and choose which laws and customs you want to adhere to...
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Deats



Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is stupid is that if you drive like you did in the west YOU will cause a crash. There is a method to the madness. You haven't adapted at all. Just another Laowai. You want to live by western laws and customs. Tough. How about adapting. I'm sure you tell the kids about how great democracy is and behind your back they think you are a tool. China wouldn't be where it has pulled itself to today if it followed western standards. Unfortunately most westerners are too ignorant to understand that 'our' way of doing things isn't always the best/right way.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But once word of mouth gets around, you don't have enough hours in the day! On a weekend I would teach at the dining room table, the missus in the study and we'd be knocking out 18 hours per day combined. Cha-ching.


Yeah, it really sounds like helping the poor kids was your primary motivation.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What is stupid is that if you drive like you did in the west YOU will cause a crash. There is a method to the madness. You haven't adapted at all. Just another Laowai. You want to live by western laws and customs. Tough. How about adapting. I'm sure you tell the kids about how great democracy is and behind your back they think you are a tool. China wouldn't be where it has pulled itself to today if it followed western standards. Unfortunately most westerners are too ignorant to understand that 'our' way of doing things isn't always the best/right way.


So to recap. You break the law to line your own pockets because

You're more intelligent than other foreigners
You know more about Chinese culture
You want to help underprivileged kids
If you didn't behave like this, it would be more harmful to the local system
than if you did.

Boy I've heard some ropey excuses in my time but these take the biscuit.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who really cares about helping people being the motivation? Most people do their job for the MONEY, and there's no shame in that.

I for one don't feel teaching is some great and noble thing to be doing, I'm here for the money. Hell, I'll sweep the car park if they agree to pay me 200rmb an hour for doing it, because it's about the money.
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bograt



Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People work illegally/evade tax for the same reasons people commit most crimes.

1) Their personal greed is stronger than their sense of civic responsibility(for whatever reason)
2) They think they'll get away with it.

Not much more to say really.


Last edited by bograt on Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bograt wrote:
People work illegally/avoid tax for the same reasons people commit most crimes.

1) Their personal greed is stronger than their sense of civic responsibility(for whatever reason)
2) They think they'll get away with it.

Not much more to say really.


Of course, your obligation to yourself outweighs your obligation to society in general.

I don't believe there's anything 'moral' about paying taxes to the PRC anyway, although even if the PRC was a benevolent state provide free education, free healthcare, good public services out of the tax system, I freely admit I still wouldn't pay the taxes if I didn't have to.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deats wrote:
What is stupid is that if you drive like you did in the west YOU will cause a crash. There is a method to the madness. You haven't adapted at all. Just another Laowai. You want to live by western laws and customs. Tough. How about adapting. I'm sure you tell the kids about how great democracy is and behind your back they think you are a tool. China wouldn't be where it has pulled itself to today if it followed western standards. Unfortunately most westerners are too ignorant to understand that 'our' way of doing things isn't always the best/right way.


Yeah some people can't drive. Your claim is you must drive like the "some people" instead of normal. Keep up your boot straps, might be another war for you.

I think we are seeing the reflections of a bad time here, not to put it down, but maybe for off topic.
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Emp1



Joined: 25 Mar 2015
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mw182006 wrote:
Emp1 wrote:
mw182006 wrote:
Weird, I make 6k/mo teaching 9 hours a week and live just fine. I love these wackos that pop in from time to time to tell us how to live our lives and that we're all doing it wrong if we're not exactly like them.


Awesome long term future you've got going here.



Who the hell are you to comment on my future? You don't know how old I am, how much money I made before ESL and what my bank accounts hold. Get bent.


Missed this gem. Tell me - why is the job you held before ESL relevant to me telling ESL teachers they need to be saving big money for their future? Obviously it doesn't apply if you already have money saved, but I thought that was sufficiently obvious it didn't need pointing out. Sorry - I fail to take into account some of the slower members of the internet sometimes.

If you're teaching ESL, with no plans to move back home and start a real career...and you can't rely on your parents leaving you a large inheritance/you don't otherwise have pots of cash in the bank...you need to be saving a large amount of money now. Not a couple of thousand poxy RMB a month either, I'm talking about 15000+. To do that you'll sometimes have to sacrifise lesson quality. That is fine - your financial future is more important than students getting good quality English lessons. Go ask any owner of a language centre whether it's more important to him to make money or for his company to provide good quality lessons. If you tried to argue it's more important to be a good teacher, he'd laugh in your face.

We go to work for money, and in every profession in the world it's more important to make money than it is to do a 'good job'. The two aren't always mutually exclusive, although in ESL they often are, since good teaching and experience aren't often rewarded by higher pay...but teaching more classes is.
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mw182006



Joined: 10 Dec 2012
Posts: 310

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emp1 wrote:
Missed this gem. Tell me - why is the job you held before ESL relevant to me telling ESL teachers they need to be saving big money for their future? Obviously it doesn't apply if you already have money saved, but I thought that was sufficiently obvious it didn't need pointing out. Sorry - I fail to take into account some of the slower members of the internet sometimes.


Again, who are you to tell people what they should/shouldn't be doing? You don't think it's 'sufficiently obvious' that people should plan for retirement? As indicated at the start of the thread, some people value free time over money. I'm sorry this doesn't seem to compute with you. But please, continue to make snide comments about random people on the internet.
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