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Mysterious
Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| 1chunk wrote: |
I was taught to be grateful at a young age and it's clear these ungrateful weirdos can learn a thing or two about appreciation. |
They say they appreciate the pay, but they don't. If they did, they would do a good job at work. Period. My husband has given me many examples of non Muslim teachers who break the rules especially with registers, to keep the students happy and on their sides, as well as other things. Being ungrateful, in my opinion, reflects in the classroom. As being culturally insensitive, rude and bad mannered on forums, as well, probably says a lot about their teaching quality, as well, because on the other hand, my husband knows many non Muslim teachers who are polite inside and outside the classroom to teachers and students. Those are the ones who make the best of their situations, with a good attitude. |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Mysterious wrote: |
| 1chunk wrote: |
I was taught to be grateful at a young age and it's clear these ungrateful weirdos can learn a thing or two about appreciation. |
They say they appreciate the pay, but they don't. If they did, they would do a good job at work. Period. My husband has given me many examples of non Muslim teachers who break the rules especially with registers, to keep the students happy and on their sides, as well as other things. Being ungrateful, in my opinion, reflects in the classroom. As being culturally insensitive, rude and bad mannered on forums, as well, probably says a lot about their teaching quality, as well, because on the other hand, my husband knows many non Muslim teachers who are polite inside and outside the classroom to teachers and students. Those are the ones who make the best of their situations, with a good attitude. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Mysterious wrote: |
better if people like that got the jobs than people who have no respect for the country they live in and are only here for the money. |
Could you identify the part of Saudi Culture that would make someone want to go to Saudi Arabia for anything other than the money?
First there is the five daily prayers blasted in your apartment, during which all commerce closes down and you are either locked in or kicked out for a half hour.
Second there is all the beautiful women's wear being shown in the malls, only the women don't wear it in public. What they wear is ugly black abayas and head scarves.
There is the wonderful opportunity to talk to and be with women without being arrested.
There is the wonderful opportunity to walk around and experience Riyadh, most of the time if you're willing to risk your live crossing the streets and walk in the streets.
There are the expats and Saudis weaving in and out between cars at 140 km per hour, Saudi Arabia has the highest per capita traffic fatalities, way above every other country.
Then there is the completely socially dysfunctional conniving students which some teachers have already discussed on this thread.
Let's not forget the Saudi Cultural Mission, the scion of Saudi Culture, the Saudi agency that reasonably and in a very timely fashion not discerns whether or not your western accredited degree is satisfactory for their interests. Who in their right mind would put up with these people along with the Saudi embassy if their wasn't money at the end.
How many Saudis have you encountered that would like to flee Riyadh and live in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or some other place. The majority that I have encountered would.
I have never encountered any one who would not like to teach reasonably well in Saudi Arabia, if only they were left alone by the Saudi students who are so dysfunctional they would not be able to do anything in the West other than live on the dole or beg. Putting down in the classroom a groups culture or religion is most definitely unprofessional, but I can guarantee you with 100 percent certainty that there was more than ample provocation in this case. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| sicklyman wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| This has absolutely nothing to do with free speech. Case in point, teachers in the US who make derogatory, racist, or sexist comments ... |
does it not? The problem in Saudi is that "respecting Saudi Arabia and Islam" is so often interpreted by students as not asking anything about why their religion and culture is the way it is. It's natural for anyone in a foreign culture to want to know the "whys" of their host nation. In Saudi though, it's the very act of asking why which is interpreted as offensive even if your question is perfectly innocent. It's this which can land the unwary in trouble, and this is about the freedom to ask enquiring questions. |
| and sicklyman wrote: |
| I'm not sure I'd agree that the "smarter" way to find out the cultural influences of a specific group of students we might be teaching is to go to the completely objective and absoluately comprehensive body of knowledge we know as the Internet. |
No, it's not natural for everyone to ask others these types of questions, especially when the subject is of a personal or sensitive nature. Frankly, asking Saudi students why their religion or culture is the way it is can end up coming across as insensitive, ignorant, or worse, cause the students to become defensive or uncomfortable depending on the nature of the question and/or how it's asked. (Just imagine asking your students questions related to those trite points plumpy nut whinges about.) Not surprising, our university policy was that teachers avoid discussing religion and certain cultural subjects with students (a smart directive that Laureate should consider implementing). I only discussed general topics such as nonverbal communication used in Saudi culture, what foods are eaten during certain holidays, and so on... mostly those related to the lessons. That said, if I ever wanted to know specifics about any religion or culture, I would first check reliable sites on the Internet; failing that, I'd ask a close, knowledgeable friend.
Last edited by nomad soul on Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Saudi Arabia has the highest per capita traffic fatalities, way above every other country. |
This is the most misquoted statistic I've heard since I've been here. According to data from the WHO, Saudi Arabia is joint 20th with Malaysia and way behind the world's worst offenders.
Get your facts straight.
OTOH, I totally agree that Saudi students are their own worst enemies when it comes to reinforcing stereotypes of Saudi that expats might bring with them when they arrive to do the best job they are capable of. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Could you identify the part of Saudi Culture that would make someone want to go to Saudi Arabia for anything other than the money? |
To engage a culture unlike one's own?
Which precludes your listing of how dissimilar its practices and behaviors are to the rest of the world. But to address a few:
What women wear in public How Saudis perceive their private domain versus a public one predates and surpasses any communist ideal. If that's not an interesting question to you, then I'm not surprised its character and motivation is dismissed when compared to western culture.
Car culture Is a recent development and its parallels to urban and suburban adoptions decades ago are many. The west, too, when a middle class afforded cars, was littered with the packaging of consumables and engaged in reckless drag racing and stunt driving. A per capita metric can be revealing (an untrue in this case), but given the number of deaths per year on US roads is nearly that of US fatalities in the VietNam war (an equivalency only recently in decline) how any nation addresses the problem is tragically ineffective.
Saudi students Dysfunctional by what metric? Scholastic habits found in the west? What else is to be expected? What grounded me was an empirical truth: Students are empowered by their own learning. There is a wealth of technique and method that taps into the human desire to be successful. It's not always easy to find given any institution's policies, but finding it is one reason I'm an educator and not sitting in a cubicle.
As VeiledSentiments pointed out, no one knows what happened in that classroom because we were not there. Likelihoods? Sure. Though I see some strange exclusivity arguments floating around. What if the teacher had said what the students claim AND tolerated it until they received a zero for cheating?
All that said, I agree most of the westerners I met came for the money. Many stayed for the money. That more money is offered guarantees that outcome. But all the grousing and thoughtless comparisons that are only expressions of preference? It's more noise than those calls to prayer, in my opinion.
Last edited by buravirgil on Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| No, it's not natural for everyone to ask others these types of questions, especially when the subject is of a personal or sensitive nature. |
Right, which was why I didn't say that. I said it was natural for anyone living overseas to want to ask questions about their host culture.
I've lived and worked overseas in several countries, including two others in the ME and I've never encountered more paranoia about cultural enquiry (forget religion) than I have from students here. Totally innocuous questions can very easily be misinterpreted as criticism. Once that happens, it's very hard to convince them you had any other motive. In addition, unlike any other nationality of students I've taught, Saudis do not seem keen to share their cultural heritage with me, despite them constantly asking questions about mine.
Maybe it's just me, but I've learned that when it comes to Saudi culture, it's safer not to ask particularly as I didn't come here primarily to learn about Saudi culture anyway. I did come with an open mind to learn and engage with my host culture as I have done in the 70 odd countries I've visited on this planet. But as my curiosity and willingness to learn has never been treated with so much suspicion, I've decided it's not worth the effort. It's a surefire way to compromise my ability to teach here in an effective way. |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Just another take, try not to take this personally.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Could you identify the part of Saudi Culture that would make someone want to go to Saudi Arabia for anything other than the money? |
Beyond Islam, there are MANY interesting aspects of this culture beginning with art, history, music, topography, Bedouin life, wildlife preservation and architecture. As for the rest, open your eyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtuqx_VOp0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlmedZMkKEU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlhH4OlCLPI
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| First there is the five daily prayers blasted in your apartment, during which all commerce closes down and you are either locked in or kicked out for a half hour. |
Not even worthy of a comment.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Second there is all the beautiful women's wear being shown in the malls, only the women don't wear it in public. What they wear is ugly black abayas and head scarves. |
Barely worthy of a comment. They ARE wearing those fashionable clothes. They show them off at parties, weddings, home and when they travel.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| There is the wonderful opportunity to talk to and be with women without being arrested. |
Ever stayed on a compound, private beach or villa? Been invited to a hash harrier event, ACS outing or Embassy party?
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| There is the wonderful opportunity to walk around and experience Riyadh, most of the time if you're willing to risk your live crossing the streets and walk in the streets. |
Risk your life? Really? Lived there for 3 years and never felt that way.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| There are the expats and Saudis weaving in and out between cars at 140 km per hour, Saudi Arabia has the highest per capita traffic fatalities, way above every other country. |
Ridiculous. Currently #53 in the world. Has always been leagues behind Thailand where I was a paramedic for 4 years. |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Then there is the completely socially dysfunctional conniving students which some teachers have already discussed on this thread. |
Students are students, the world over. They come in all shapes and sizes with different needs and challenges.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| Let's not forget the Saudi Cultural Mission, the scion of Saudi Culture, the Saudi agency that reasonably and in a very timely fashion not discerns whether or not your western accredited degree is satisfactory for their interests. Who in their right mind would put up with these people along with the Saudi embassy if their wasn't money at the end. |
My last two visas were processed toot-sweet.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| How many Saudis have you encountered that would like to flee Riyadh and live in Dubai or Abu Dhabi or some other place. The majority that I have encountered would. |
Many ask sheepishly, “How do you like it here?” and show great admiration when I list all of the benefits Saudi has provided me with.
| plumpy nut wrote: |
| I have never encountered any one who would not like to teach reasonably well in Saudi Arabia, if only they were left alone by the Saudi students who are so dysfunctional they would not be able to do anything in the West other than live on the dole or beg. Putting down in the classroom a groups culture or religion is most definitely unprofessional, but I can guarantee you with 100 percent certainty that there was more than ample provocation in this case. |
100 percent certainty about a situation you were not a part of? That’s just bizarre.
I find that Saudi students would go out on a limb for you and defend you if you’ve done a number of things.
- Shown some (even the slightest) interest in their language, geography or culture.
- Proved that you give a s**t whether they improve or not, regardless of the challenges that teachers choose to face by teaching them in groups.
- Have been (even slightly) intimate with them by sharing something personal about yourself.
- Know your stuff (English, that is)
Respectfully yours, |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cnthaiksarok wrote: |
I find that Saudi students would go out on a limb for you and defend you if you’ve done a number of things.
- Shown some (even the slightest) interest in their language, geography or culture.
- Proved that you give a s**t whether they improve or not, regardless of the challenges that teachers choose to face by teaching them in groups.
- Have been (even slightly) intimate with them by sharing something personal about yourself.
- Know your stuff (English, that is) |
I totally agree. There are those who say they didn't go to KSA to learn about Saudi culture. However, learning about the culture allows you more insight into your students, which in turn, helps you get to know them better both as a group and as individuals. You build rapport with them as they get to know you---you become approachable. As a result, they tend to work harder in order to please you but actually end up improving their English without resorting to cheating. |
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BajaLaJaula
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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it is just that I find so many aspects of their culture repulsive and contrary to my own ideals....go learn about their culture and try to see the positives (while you are lining your pockets with their money)...but don't turn a blind eye to all the negatives (once you have left and can be honest about it).
1....Ana awal, anta abidan (loosely translated to mean: Me first, you never)
....when was the last time you saw Saudis get in line and wait their turn?
2....Fii wahed thani (loosely translated to mean: Why bother, someone else will do it.
....when was the last time you saw a Saudi pick up trash or refrain from throwing trash on the street when there was a receptacle within a few feet?
3....Khali wali (loosely translated to mean: Don't worry about it. We can deal with it later)
....The Saudi work ethic.
4.....Inshallah (should mean God willing for the truly pious, but many times is used to mean "Not likely" or "yeah, right! that'll never happen.)
True their history and culture should be fascinating...but the culture you see in the cities is repulsive. Total lack of care for others, no sense of accountability, no willingness to help without wanting something in return....I could go on forever about how the Saudi culture turns people off and misrepresents Islam.
So go ahead and try to be positive ...but don't "p*ss on my back and then tell me it's raining" cause I have been there and I know what Saudi culture is all about....Ana ana ana...ME ME ME. Who else is there???? |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BajaLaJaula wrote: |
| it is just that I find so many aspects of their culture repulsive |
Well, it's good you left then - sincerely.
| BajaLaJaula wrote: |
| I have been there and I know what Saudi culture is all about....Ana ana ana...ME ME ME. |
With all due respect, I don't believe you do. I believe you know a lot about the surface, that is - the general populace of youngsters here (who do have the majority currently).
Calling a number of Saudis "good friends," not one of them even slightly resembles what you've outlined above.
I do realize that Saudi and Saudis have issues that are difficult for Westerners (and others) to get their heads around.
Some of their traits seem so appallingly ludicrous to us, that the (seemingly) best reaction is to refuse, resist, fight it at every corner and basically justify our own good selves through it, since we're so much better.
Not suggesting any one of us adopts those traits you've outlined above, but a little bit of acceptance, understanding and realization that we are all products of what we grew up in, can go a long way towards personal peace in this admittedly challenging atmosphere. |
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BajaLaJaula
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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sarok ...you are entitled to your opinion. Your view of KSA is very different than mine.
BTW...your Saudi friends are in the minority...Good that you have those friends so that you can say...Not all Saudis are like that.
They have undoubtedly travelled outside of their country. They have probably lived and studied abroad. They have close friends from other cultures and have had a chance to broaden their view of Western cultures.
The vast majority of Saudis....have not traveled outside their country...have not lived or studied overseas....do not have the opportunity to get out of Saudi when their contract is up...so they have no choice but to embrace what their country is...and just deal with it the best way that they can.
You will leave and go back to civilization once you are done with Saudi...and will continue to have good relations with your Saudi friends that you have made....They will be stuck in Saudi...but there are a few positives.
Some positives about KSA:
1. Less crime than most other places.
2. No taxes
It is a short list...
I would have added 3. Higher salary, but that is no longer true....but if those things are important to you...enjoy living in KSA.
Last edited by BajaLaJaula on Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cnthaiksarok
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 288
Location: between a rock and a sandy place
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Baja.
I knew plenty of teachers who could not even stand living in Korea nor Thailand.
The smart(er) ones left.
My list for Saudi perks is much longer than yours, but it wasn't always that way for me.
Suffice it to say, I respect your opinion as well.
All the best. |
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