Job Discussion Forums

[ATK]

I'm very curious as to why places such as Wall Street, Disney, English First etc are considered bad and people are usually told to stay away from accepting positions there.

I ask because I am currently a teacher in the US in an inner city school in NYC. I will be coming to China this fall and have multiple offers, both from "regular" schools and some listed above.

Right now, teaching is pretty rough and I think many who have worked in public schools in tough neighborhoods in the US may agree. Long hours lesson planning, grading/assessing student work, dealing with parents, administration and school duties, pressure for test scores, "low pay" relative to the work, not enough free time etc. Then, one of the big things is to even teach lessons many times, you have to get past excessive student behavior issues and disruptions.

So I say this because, If I was to accept a position at one of these learning centers, what are somethings that would really make working there worse relative to an inner city school in the US or is it just a comparison to other schools in Beijing? I always see people state that they work every penny out of you, but that doesn't seem to be much different to that or US public schools.

So just curious and looking for some insight to help my decisions. Thanks for the help in advance.

[nomad soul]

[Markness]

If you have a teaching licence from the states then you're better off applying at international schools. Language mills are a pain in the ass to work in too. Same crap with parents, incompetent Chinese staff, questionable pay (if they pay on time), demanding of things being done immediately, whereas if you ask for something simple it will never come, and here is my favorite... <drum roll> .. deductions. They try and deduct for every little thing they can.

You can do better my friend.

Also, forgot to mention that at my training school before I had all of that + a foreign teacher manager who was the biggest piece of crap I've ever met in my life. You can deal with all of those things, but a person who goes out of his way to make every teacher's life miserable is truly an arse. This clown went out of his way to try and get teachers deducted salaries. Never mess with someones money, it's just going too far. He still works there and the Chinese staff wonder why half of the teachers half left within the past year. Even after many of us complained about that fool.

[hdeth]

[Non Sequitur]

An international school is the only employer that is going to look legit and career-based when you return home.
If you are licensed in your home state don't even consider a chain school.
Most are franchises and as good as the level of avarice of the owner.
Sounds like you are under huge pressure to get out.
Take a deep breath and plan your move.
You have a career to lose, not like FTs who will likely not stay in teaching after China.

[doogsville]

All the hassles of working in the USA, the UK or whatever are bad, for sure. Imagine some, not all, but some of those hassles taking place in an environment where you cannot communicate with most people, where the food is strange and sometimes unpalatable, where you can't do something as simple as take a bus because you no longer read and write like an adult, but like a two year old.

The frustrations of working for a business that has no interest in you other than using you to generate money are bad enough. I know, I worked for McDonald's for a while in the UK. But when they take place in what is effectively an alien environment, and when you have little choice but to put up with them or go back to your old life in your native country, they can take on a whole new level of aggravation. Add to that the frustration of being treated like and spoken to as if you were a child, because you don't understand the language or how things are done here.

I would take the advice of the others here and aim for a job at an international school, or even a university job. Language mills are okay for the short term, but, as the name implies, they will grind you down over time.

[kungfuman]

My school pays licensed teachers 30000y a month and up. Non-licensed teachers make from 3000y a month ( backpacking scabs working illegally) to 12-16000y a month for degree teachers.

While the NYC school system might not seem so good after 20 years you get something. In China after 20 years - and age 60 or so - all you get is the boot.

Plus there ain't no Katz's Deli or Nathans in China...

[Neilhrd]

If you are going to do any teaching job properly then lesson prep, marking, dealing with parents etc are part of the job. In China there is some but probably less than in a New York school. You will rarely have to grade complex project work, for example. However never accept a contract that requires fixed office hours. In most cases it will be next to impossible to work in the office specified because of useless or non existent computers, zero resources, broken photocopiers, constant interruptions etc and you will still need to put in more hours at home.

One big advantage of working in China is that disruptive students are really not an issue. The worst you can expect is apathy. On the whole, adult private langauage schools have more motivated students than state schools and universities because most are paying their own hard earned money. Kids schools, like Disney, can be another ballgame and helicoptor parents can be a pain.

Most language mills are in city centres whereas a lot of the newer universities are miles from nowhere. This is horses for courses but certainly something to think about.

Other posters have mentioned Chinese staff. Yes some are incompetent, and if you happen to be African American or Hispanic racism is also widespread. However I have also worked with plenty of highly skilled, dedicated and helpful Chinese teachers and support staff. As a general rule, if the HR people who deal with your application seem competent the rest of the staff probably will be. On the other hand if the HR people can't speak reasonable English, you speak to a different person every time you contact the school, they are evasive, the contract is gobblededook, or they give three different answers if you ask the same question three times, then walk away.

The biggest drawback with language mills is chronic instability. Very few owners or leaders have any background in education and have no consistent policies about the curriculum, pedagogy etc. Instead the policy is whatever the last parent who had their ear wants, however hairbrained. They will order you to do it then the next week another parent gets their attention and you will be told to do the exact opposite. Often the leaders do not even see the contradiction. This makes professional development, action research etc impossible. Universities, however, have the opposite problem. The curriculum and teaching methods are consistent but set in concrete, often decades out of date, and usually irrelevant to the student's real needs.

China isn't as homogenous as most westerners think. Shop around, ask questions and don't be fooled by over generalisations.

[Non Sequitur]

There is another pov in that the OP may rediscover her/his teaching mojo doing a couple of semesters as an FT.
Provincial level college, uncomplicated students, 16 contact hours pw etc etc.
He/she has a lot more at risk with the study and registration and it would be a pity to suffer a burnout and leave teaching altogether.
Characterise it as a 'sabbatical' for CV purposes.
While in China check out the internationals by actual visit and see where that leads in Y2 and subsequently.

[CNexpatesl]

I worked a language mill/training center as my first job and first introduction to ESL in China.

Was pretty terrible. They had cameras in the rooms, the parents or grandparents would watch and criticize and nitpick you for any little thing. The head boss lady also got on my case and pressured me to "rapidly improve" nearly every day. They would claim they're observing our lessons by constantly watching me and some of the other teachers, and make us rehearse lesson plans with them. I would handle students as young as 3-5 years old, then teach a 15-16 year old later that same day. It was hard to get a niche down when you're expected to teach in such diverse ways on short notice.

In short, you're under constant pressure and the job is fairly stressful. You're put on display like an animal; if you're not particularly outgoing or like singing songs and dancing like a jackass for kids, it'll be brutal.

[3701 W.119th]

The big brand private language centres, at least, are as good or bad as the people managing them, (both on the education side - often foreign run, and the business/operations side - entirely Chinese run). To further complicate things, educational management often churns just as fast as the teaching staff they're leading. TIC.

It's impossible to paint all centres (mills) with the same brush, and that's just within any given city. China as a whole? Pointless.

I cringe when I read most opinions about mills here, because they're usually presented as blanket fact. Like every one of the many, many thousands of private centres in China are just like what the poster experienced themselves.

Truth is, as workplaces, some are truly great, some are really awful, but most are somewhere in between.

Speak with the manager of the centre. Get a feel for the kind of person they are. Then hope they don't leave during your contract.

[OhBudPowellWhereArtThou]

[Non Sequitur]

Not in my country.
Sabbaticals are the preserve of tertiary teachers/profs.

[OhBudPowellWhereArtThou]

AFAIK, most (if not all) state-run U.S. public school systems at all levels allow for sabbaticals. I've never known a U.S. prof to take a sabbatical,though, except to return to school. Anything else looks like burnout and personal problems and may prompt tenure/contract review.

For an American teacher to take time out to gain perspective of education in another culture would probably be looked upon favorably. It's common for U.S. graduate students (MS's and MA's) to teach abroad upon graduation if they can't get a university teaching position at home. Many times, that, too, is looked upon favorably.

[Non Sequitur]

Might just pay for OP to check with his teacher union or ?? about other teachers who have gone the same route.
As always I don't feel happy about anyone seeking guidance solely on Dave's when direct sources are available.