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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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 Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:13 am Post subject: Re: How to negotiate the salary of an offer I've received? |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| hdeth wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
| 54321 wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
..and born to teach what's more! |
What exactly is wrong with trying to get higher remuneration? |
There's nothing wrong with it, but when anyone suggests asking for 30-40% more than what already looks like a fairly decent offer it reveals the sense of entitlement that's obvious on this forum. Looking at it another way, if a teacher tries to negotiate a higher salary they're being savvy negotiators, but when a school tries to get a better deal from their end they're just ripping off the teacher and are blacklisted. This is the point I believe Non Sequitur is making.
One thing I've noticed is that those who brag about being able to scam their school for far more than was originally offered, or who suggest others do so, are sometimes the same posters who've complained about their employers sometimes not honouring the contract. It makes you wonder ... not really, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on  |
My boss is a megalomaniac who is making BANK off these kids, while doing little to promote their education. All he cares about is money. All the HR people who do the hiring care about is how much they can save the school. They know there's a certain going rate that they're willing to pay, and anything less than that the HR people get kudos. They have hired hundreds of teachers and have a very good idea of salaries. For teachers here often it is their first time negotiating and/or they don't even know they can negotiate. They are being taken advantage of by inequality of information.
So no, it's not really the same. I would be more than happy if there were posted salary scales, but my school wouldn't be.
At least at this school, it's a battle between the teachers and the admin. It shouldn't be that way, it's bad for the school, and it's tiring, but that's how it is. |
Salaries in any industry are not determined by how much profit a company generates. If that were the case bank tellers would be making $1 million or more each month. Salaries are determined by a. how much value does this individual add to my company, b. by the skill set the teacher brings with them, or c. by what the market already pays for similarly skilled jobs. How much profit your boss sees every month is really nobody's business other than the person who owns the company. Anyone who feels entitled to the same riches can start their own company and try make a go of it. FYI, I have run a small business and it's not a simple matter of revenue minus salaries = diamond encrusted toilets in every room of the bosses home. FYI2, since the skill set many ESL teachers possess is basically rock bottom (or close to it) it boggles my mind when some of these people ask (demand) far more than they're worth. FYI3, your boss is running the business side of things. It's your job as a teacher to promote education within that business. |
I have run a business too.
1. I put that information to show my utter lack of sympathy for my bosses.
2. Almost all the teachers here are certified teachers, often with one or more advanced degree. Incoming registered teachers earning $10k+shared housing get pissed when the one guy without certification is making twice as much as them.
3. There are many things that the administration can do that make teaching much more difficult and harder for the kids to get an education. Changing all the students grades for starters.
As I said, the school knows what the going rate is. They will do anything they can to pay as much less as possible. Usually during year 1 most of the teachers wise up and understand their worth so they ask for more when they renew, or threaten to leave if the school doesn't pay them what they're worth.
A certified teacher working full time is definitely not worth the 9-10k this school offers. That is degrading.
All this has very little to do with being paid appropriately and almost everything to do with the school using inequality of information to trick people into accepting a lower salary than they are due. They tell us all the time to not talk with other teachers about our salaries because they are afraid the new guys will find out they got screwed.
For language mill jobs, there's a lot you can compare between jobs. You've got a lot more information at your disposal.
For "international" school jobs there is much less information. There are fewer jobs posted and it's somewhat of an emerging market. It can be hard and take some effort to determine what you're worth. |
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54321
Joined: 11 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:19 am Post subject: Re: How to negotiate the salary of an offer I've received? |
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| 7969 wrote: |
Salaries in any industry are not determined by how much profit a company generates. If that were the case bank tellers would be making $1 million or more each month. Salaries are determined by a. how much value does this individual add to my company, b. by the skill set the teacher brings with them, or c. by what the market already pays for similarly skilled jobs. How much profit your boss sees every month is really nobody's business other than the person who owns the company. Anyone who feels entitled to the same riches can start their own company and try make a go of it. FYI, I have run a small business and it's not a simple matter of revenue minus salaries = diamond encrusted toilets in every room of the bosses home. FYI2, since the skill set many ESL teachers possess is basically rock bottom (or close to it) it boggles my mind when some of these people ask (demand) far more than they're worth. FYI3, your boss is running the business side of things. It's your job as a teacher to promote education within that business. |
A) Without the foreign teacher, the parents wouldn't pay the astronomical tuition fees, so the foreign teacher adds plenty of 'value' to the business.
B) Most ESL teachers are low-skilled. But I dispute that salaries are paid according to 'skill'. It's solely about how much value an individual gives to a company. For example - David Beckham made plenty of money through advertising and modelling, since he's got a handsome face. But that's not a 'skill', his only true skill is playing football, he's a thick *beep* in every other aspect of life. Yet companies paid him handsomely to advertise their products because of the value that would add to the company.
C) The issue here is when the school tries to pay a 'below market' rate to a guy who is new to China and doesn't understand what other places would be willing to pay.
The supply of teachers here is vastly outstripped by demand, so no one should have any problem making decent money here. In other words, no one should be signing a contract that involves 40 hours office time a week for 8k + apartment, for instance. Yes, even if that guy has no experience and no qualifications...supply and demand suggests the rate should be much higher.
It is, as pointed out by another, inequality of information. The school has years of experience in China, or at least the boss running the company does, while the new foreign teacher has none. |
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Markness
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 738
Location: Chengdu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: Re: How to negotiate the salary of an offer I've received? |
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| 54321 wrote: |
| 7969 wrote: |
Salaries in any industry are not determined by how much profit a company generates. If that were the case bank tellers would be making $1 million or more each month. Salaries are determined by a. how much value does this individual add to my company, b. by the skill set the teacher brings with them, or c. by what the market already pays for similarly skilled jobs. How much profit your boss sees every month is really nobody's business other than the person who owns the company. Anyone who feels entitled to the same riches can start their own company and try make a go of it. FYI, I have run a small business and it's not a simple matter of revenue minus salaries = diamond encrusted toilets in every room of the bosses home. FYI2, since the skill set many ESL teachers possess is basically rock bottom (or close to it) it boggles my mind when some of these people ask (demand) far more than they're worth. FYI3, your boss is running the business side of things. It's your job as a teacher to promote education within that business. |
A) Without the foreign teacher, the parents wouldn't pay the astronomical tuition fees, so the foreign teacher adds plenty of 'value' to the business.
B) Most ESL teachers are low-skilled. But I dispute that salaries are paid according to 'skill'. It's solely about how much value an individual gives to a company. For example - David Beckham made plenty of money through advertising and modelling, since he's got a handsome face. But that's not a 'skill', his only true skill is playing football, he's a thick *beep* in every other aspect of life. Yet companies paid him handsomely to advertise their products because of the value that would add to the company.
C) The issue here is when the school tries to pay a 'below market' rate to a guy who is new to China and doesn't understand what other places would be willing to pay.
The supply of teachers here is vastly outstripped by demand, so no one should have any problem making decent money here. In other words, no one should be signing a contract that involves 40 hours office time a week for 8k + apartment, for instance. Yes, even if that guy has no experience and no qualifications...supply and demand suggests the rate should be much higher.
It is, as pointed out by another, inequality of information. The school has years of experience in China, or at least the boss running the company does, while the new foreign teacher has none. |
Seconded. If someone is paid 5 grand a month to clean toilets because they're super in demand then that is fair. Doesn't matter if they don't have the greatest qualifications and/or are unskilled. Too many times I've seen employers trying to screw people over with their salary if they can. People pay 100-200,000 yuan a year to come to my school and they have thousands of students. Nice thing about my gig is that they have a scale which shows the lowest to the highest rate you can be making there. Keeping people in the dark is a dick move by the employer. The employers here need foreign teachers so badly. They can't afford to be playing games. If it was the other way around I could see them pulling these stunts off. |
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54321
Joined: 11 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:53 am Post subject: Re: How to negotiate the salary of an offer I've received? |
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| Markness wrote: |
Seconded. If someone is paid 5 grand a month to clean toilets because they're super in demand then that is fair. Doesn't matter if they don't have the greatest qualifications and/or are unskilled. Too many times I've seen employers trying to screw people over with their salary if they can. People pay 100-200,000 yuan a year to come to my school and they have thousands of students. Nice thing about my gig is that they have a scale which shows the lowest to the highest rate you can be making there. Keeping people in the dark is a dick move by the employer. The employers here need foreign teachers so badly. They can't afford to be playing games. If it was the other way around I could see them pulling these stunts off. |
Amen. I don't get out of bed for less than 200 yuan per class, and I get plenty of offers. Most are paying more than this. For the 200 deal I want at least 3 classes scheduled back to back and just basic easy conversation type stuff. If you're a business wanting your employees teaching, it's 300 an hour. A multinational place? 350. There's people willing to pay it, especially in larger cities.
Back in my home country, I'd probably be looking at an hourly rate of 100rmb, and it would be taxed too! But that's completely irrelevant since back home I'm not in demand, whereas over here I am. If a school is getting 100,000 yuan per student per year, and they're paying that because of the opportunity to be taught by a native speaker, then I am adding a lot of value to the company - and I want paying accordingly. In fact, without a foreign teacher, the boss wouldn't have a company as no one would pay for tuition, and as demand for FT's hugely outstrips supply, that has got to be a real business risk for him.
To any foreign teacher, one great negotiating tactic with private employers (part-time ones that don't hold your visa) is to tell them you're going elsewhere as you've been offered a better hourly rate. Chances are pretty good the boss will offer a raise since he really doesn't want to be without an FT. Even in mega-cities where there's more foreigners this can work, since while you might have more competition, there's also a lot more students in those cities, and hence a lot more demand. |
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Deats
Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Let's not forget the OP said his school WANT to negotiate. So why wouldn't he ask for more? That is not being entitled.
In China almost everything is negotiable. And the way negotiations work in China is one person says something very high, the other person something very low and you meet in the middle. The biggest mistake foreigners make is to not understand this principle. Their first offer is a fair one, then they have to compromise from there, meaning they get screwed. I learned this the hard way when I first travelled in China. I soon wised up, and thank goodness I did. |
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54321
Joined: 11 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Deats wrote: |
Let's not forget the OP said his school WANT to negotiate. So why wouldn't he ask for more? That is not being entitled.
In China almost everything is negotiable. And the way negotiations work in China is one person says something very high, the other person something very low and you meet in the middle. The biggest mistake foreigners make is to not understand this principle. Their first offer is a fair one, then they have to compromise from there, meaning they get screwed. I learned this the hard way when I first travelled in China. I soon wised up, and thank goodness I did. |
In my experience, universities normally don't try and screw you too bad. They might offer 6000 when they would be willing to pay 6500, for instance. When it comes to the full time uni job, I'd generally try and negotiate on other areas providing the salary is not absurdly low - the big one being teaching hours. I'd also try and get utilities paid, apartment on campus, no commuting to other campuses.
Private employers are a different matter and I agree you've got to negotiate hard with them for more money. Their first offer will almost always be a joke...if they say 120 an hour, come back with 400. Don't say 200 or 250 since they'll try and knock it down further, if you start out high you can negotiate downwards to your 200-250 target. |
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mattyko40
Joined: 05 Aug 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Taipei
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
hdeth wrote:
7969 wrote:
54321 wrote:
Non Sequitur wrote:
..and born to teach what's more!
What exactly is wrong with trying to get higher remuneration?
There's nothing wrong with it, but when anyone suggests asking for 30-40% more than what already looks like a fairly decent offer it reveals the sense of entitlement that's obvious on this forum. Looking at it another way, if a teacher tries to negotiate a higher salary they're being savvy negotiators, but when a school tries to get a better deal from their end they're just ripping off the teacher and are blacklisted. This is the point I believe Non Sequitur is making.
One thing I've noticed is that those who brag about being able to scam their school for far more than was originally offered, or who suggest others do so, are sometimes the same posters who've complained about their employers sometimes not honouring the contract. It makes you wonder ... not really, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on Laughing
My boss is a megalomaniac who is making BANK off these kids, while doing little to promote their education. All he cares about is money. All the HR people who do the hiring care about is how much they can save the school. They know there's a certain going rate that they're willing to pay, and anything less than that the HR people get kudos. They have hired hundreds of teachers and have a very good idea of salaries. For teachers here often it is their first time negotiating and/or they don't even know they can negotiate. They are being taken advantage of by inequality of information.
So no, it's not really the same. I would be more than happy if there were posted salary scales, but my school wouldn't be.
At least at this school, it's a battle between the teachers and the admin. It shouldn't be that way, it's bad for the school, and it's tiring, but that's how it is.
Salaries in any industry are not determined by how much profit a company generates. If that were the case bank tellers would be making $1 million or more each month. Salaries are determined by a. how much value does this individual add to my company, b. by the skill set the teacher brings with them, or c. by what the market already pays for similarly skilled jobs. How much profit your boss sees every month is really nobody's business other than the person who owns the company. Anyone who feels entitled to the same riches can start their own company and try make a go of it. FYI, I have run a small business and it's not a simple matter of revenue minus salaries = diamond encrusted toilets in every room of the bosses home. FYI2, since the skill set many ESL teachers possess is basically rock bottom (or close to it) it boggles my mind when some of these people ask (demand) far more than they're worth. FYI3, your boss is running the business side of things. It's your job as a teacher to promote education within that business.
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Why would you even say such things on a teacher board? Of course WE teachers should be paid more.
What I really don't understand is your use of "market". You seem to be referring to a free market, but this is china which is wrought with corruption. Asking to make 2k us or a little more is reasonable when parents drop kids off in Mercedes, and the only reason they do this your white face. Oh and as previously stated the demand far outstrips supply in this country.
I would love to see your numbers on why bank tellers deserve $1 mil. Commercial banks have rather small profit margins usually; however, investment banks are another story, but they don't employ tellers.
I work at a college and it's my first year here, but I can easily see the market corruption and how the Chinese rip off both parties in the esl transaction. If you can't then maybe you lack a certain amount of business acumen, which explains why you used to run a business.
Edit* OP are you dealing with a foreigner or Chinese principal? If he is Chinese ask for 25k.
You need to figure out total compensation for both jobs(salary, holiday pay, apartment value plus marginal tax rate and cost....) then divide by hours worked. Then apply how much you value your current situation vs how much you feel the wanderlust bug and whether you have the energy to switch cities. Also factor in part time work- do you do it, could you do it in new city, how much time it would take to find appropriate new pt job.
I could go on but you get the picture. you sound like a ball park type of guy so if its a foreigner ask for 20k and be ready to move. |
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3701 W.119th
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 386
Location: Central China
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Wish it was black and white.
Some really well-qualified, serious teachers are earning 5-6-7K and are happy.
Some misanthrope, unqualified bums, thinking they're Gordon Gecko, saying they're earning 15-20k on 20 hours a week (seriously doubt it), are debating best ways to rinse a school for an extra hundred quid a month. 'Give me 20K a month or I'll walk'. Nonsense. Most are nothing more but a white face. Shame on you.
The actual bank balance of most of these idiots would be very different from what they post here. Such is the internet.
People are making big money in China, of course. Fair play. But they probably aren't posting on a teaching help/advice board. Why would they? |
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Deats
Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Why wouldn't they? |
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Voyeur
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Not everything is as negotiable as some make things out. It really seems to depend. Especially at public schools and universities, your boss' hands are often tied with respect to how much they can offer.
OTOH, many people will say their hands are tied as a negotiating tactic. It's hard to know. Even public schools often have at least a bit of leeway. Training centers usually have a lot more. |
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Deats
Joined: 02 Jan 2015
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Universities definitely have leeway. For example: They can offer BA 6000, MA 6500 and PHD 7000. Therefore they have at least 7000 to spend. So if they offer a BA 6000, they have an extra 1000 to play with. Sure they don't want to pay the BA 7000, but they can. Any institute with sliding pay scales can always offer more. |
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