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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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 Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Are you black |
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| NubianQueen wrote: |
| you have been here to long if you think you should not be able to change jobs at will |
Wr-r-r-rong ... one gives up one's option to "change jobs at will" for a certain period of time (the effective period of the contract) when one signs a contract, subject to the provisions of that contract.
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| If you can justify someone leaving the contract per their terms and not getting documents then you are not to bright. |
No, if you believe you can always do everything on your own terms, regardless of what you have signed your name to in a contract, YOU are the one who isn't so bright. (By the way, you might want to look up "to, too, and two": I have a handy worksheet made for primary school students, if you'd like to have a look ...)
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| I don't owe anyone a year of my life if I can move on to something else I will. |
Sorry, basically that is what signing a contract means: you don't owe anyone your life, but you owe them a good faith effort to fulfill what you have agreed to do in that contract. Anyway, since you can and you will, what are you doing on here wasting other people's (whether they happen to be "normal" or "ab") time? Why not just get on with it? I say "wasting the time of others" because 1) someone who asks for advice but then rejects all advice offered out-of-hand, except for that which agrees with them, is obviously wasting other people's time; and because 2) someone who can't understand (or refuses to acknowledge) the clear differences between contractual and "at will" employment is, clearly, more than a bit obtuse.
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| No job is that great you can't find better. |
Well. At the rate you've established, I predict you will just keep rising right up the ladder of success. Yes, I see great things in your future!
You complain about getting "bashed" after asking for advice. We've tried to give you what is truly sound advice (like try to finish one f'ing contract) but you don't like it because it ain't whatcha wanna hear, so ... then you start putting others down because they gave it to you straight and calling people "not to (sic) bright" ... 
Last edited by mysterytrain on Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Decide not to return after summer vacation |
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| NubianQueen wrote: |
| Laws are changing this is in shenszhen. What are the penalties I will pay the fee but not sure that is wise doubt they will give me what they say like letter of release ect. Can I apply in other parts of china or is it a wrap? Only those who are not going to bash me. |
I thought long and hard before posting on this thread. Partly because of the 'bash' thing and partly because I didn't realise the start stop nature of your tenure.
Once I saw a few things teased out I had to post.
Have you considered the hassle your FAO had to go through at the PSB to explain your on, on, off story?
Behind the affability we may get from our FAOs is the tightly controlled State.
I once heard a Chinese being ripped by the PSB goons.
It wasn't pretty. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| What are the penalties I will pay the fee but not sure that is wise doubt they will give me what they say like letter of release ect. |
What language is this? I certainly hope this is not what you are teaching. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:24 am Post subject: |
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many here will think breaking a promise is immoral, and that a breach of contract is the same thing. Chinese law does not explicitly recognize the moral context of breach of contract and because this is an instrument governed by legal requirements, the morality of breaking a contract is not a valid argument against the desolation of said instrument. If you can characterize china as a employment-at-will system then the relationship may be terminated at any time by either the employer or the employee, with or without notice. Personally, I think there is a moral aspects to a promise, however this may or may not be considered when making this kind of decision and it is really determined by the individuals involved in the process. The trouble it took to gain the employment or to provide employment is not a concern due to the legal nature of the contract. Is is merely seen as the cost of doing business.
I would offer as an example of western employment standards the employment situation with universities sport programs....Colleges don't show much loyalty to coaches these days and same goes for the way that coaches regard their employment with unis.. most folk get to change jobs without moral opprobrium. A professional standard of one's relationship with their obligations matter a lot. Expectations of both employee and employer matter and this in turns leads to a consideration of the presence of unfulfilled contractual damages that can effect the well being of the individual involved....
Sometimes it's okay to bolt and sometimes it isn't. Being able to tell the difference is what makes breaking a contract a step up the latter or the characterization of developing a reputation for unfulfilled promises...
as to getting the paperwork.. with a payout you maybe able to accomplish .... how ever, due to the numinous accounts of employers failing to do their jobs even when satisfactory performance was the work standard...would lead me to believe that if your breaking the contract or not... you cannot count on this being a standard of transition ... If I were exchanging a release letter ..I would not hand over any cash til I saw the letter.. chopped....signed and reviewed by legal authority ... and remember there are cost to breaking a contract.. it too can be filed as the "cost of doing business".... |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| many here will think breaking a promise is immoral, and that a breach of contract is the same thing. Chinese law does not explicitly recognize the moral context of breach of contract and because this is an instrument governed by legal requirements, the morality of breaking a contract is not a valid argument against the desolation of said instrument. |
I can't recall having ever seen the word "desolation" used in this way... I honestly do not know whether this is appropriate usage or not, though I suspect that it is, though rarely used in such a way and probably almost always in a legal context... interesting. The idea brought up here about the absence of moral context as a consideration under the legal framework in Chinese culture is also interesting, and valid, I think.
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| If you can characterize china as a employment-at-will system then the relationship may be terminated at any time by either the employer or the employee, with or without notice. Personally, I think there is a moral aspects to a promise, however this may or may not be considered when making this kind of decision and it is really determined by the individuals involved in the process. The trouble it took to gain the employment or to provide employment is not a concern due to the legal nature of the contract. Is is merely seen as the cost of doing business. |
This I definitely do not understand. How can an "employment-at-will system" exist within the confines of contractual employment which states, typically: "Party B will work for Party A beginning xx/xx/xxxx and continually until xx/xx/xxxx" ... "IF Party B wishes to terminate this contract early, Party B must ..." ... "Party (A /B) may terminate this contract IF [specific conditions to be met] ..." ... etc? This is vastly different from a system in which, as in standard at-will employment in the U.S., an employee can just quit on the spot or, as a standard courtesy, offer at least two weeks prior notice. I don't know about the standard terms of employment for Chinese, but I seriously can't see how the system in place for foreigners could ever be accurately described or defined as "at-will".
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| Sometimes it's okay to bolt and sometimes it isn't. Being able to tell the difference is what makes breaking a contract a step up the latter or the characterization of developing a reputation for unfulfilled promises... |
Fair enough. |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| mysterytrain wrote: |
| ....I can't recall having ever seen the word "desolation" used in this way... |
Probably 'dissolution'. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Chinese law does not explicitly recognize the moral context of breach of contract and because this is an instrument governed by legal requirements, the morality of breaking a contract is not a valid argument against the desolation of said instrument. |
It's an oddly written sentence, but the term definitely could be dissolution, although termination is better for an employment contract. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| This I definitely do not understand. How can an "employment-at-will system" exist within the confines of contractual employment which states |
means you can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, ). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination. Remember I said, "IF" China can be characterized as employment at will a practice which may have been designed to bust unions in the u.s.
I think in the U.S. every state but Montana (which protects employees who have completed an initial "probationary period" from being fired without cause), employers are free to adopt at-will employment policies.
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| valid argument against the desolation of said instrument. |
not sure what I meant at the time .. as I was just typing on my "smart phoney" ...but what attention for a typo, I'm flattered....
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The idea brought up here about the absence of moral context as a consideration under the legal framework in Chinese culture is also interesting, and valid, I think. |
I think since Gordon Gekko hit the silver screen ..... the absence of moral context of high finance and contractual obligation is a stone cold reality ....no mater what culture.... while contracts have a clause B, and the Misfits have Plan 9 from Outer Space ...it is wise to have a plan B in-case your employer decides to open up a can of "Trump" on ya... don't worry to much about the guys who run things, or employe foreigners...its their job |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| This I definitely do not understand. How can an "employment-at-will system" exist within the confines of contractual employment which states |
means you can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, ). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination. Remember I said, "IF" China can be characterized as employment at will |
Fair enough.
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| a practice which may have been designed to bust unions in the u.s. |
Probably was.
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| valid argument against the desolation of said instrument. |
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| not sure what I meant at the time .. as I was just typing on my "smart phoney" ...but what attention for a typo, I'm flattered.... |
I am just interested in word usage (choices) and sentence constructions, etc ... it caught my attention and was / is interesting to me. Since you also used the word 'numinous' in the same post, where I believe you meant 'numerous', I suspect a bit of Malapropism here. Please don't take it as a criticism by me ... as said, I find such variations and "mistakes" interesting and at times entertaining. A minor confession: I sometimes make them on porpoise, myself.
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| Quote: |
The idea brought up here about the absence of moral context as a consideration under the legal framework in Chinese culture is also interesting, and valid, I think. |
I think since Gordon Gekko hit the silver screen ..... the absence of moral context of high finance and contractual obligation is a stone cold reality ....no mater what culture.... while contracts have a clause B, and the Misfits have Plan 9 from Outer Space ...it is wise to have a plan B in-case your employer decides to open up a can of "Trump" on ya... don't worry to much about the guys who run things, or employe foreigners...its their job |
That could certainly lead to a wider discussion and opens up a philosophical can of worms. I think the argument can certainly be made that in a broad sense, the notion of 'morality' as expressed in the Abrahamic religions from the Middle East, Greco-Roman culture from the West as well as the traditional religions and philosophies of the East, has been largely abandoned as a basic, underlying operating principle by a majority of people in much of the world, not just for business but for just about any or every human activity, at least to some extent. I guess we can blame Nietzche for that.
I think it's interesting that although China took a very different path, politically, socially and economically, from that of the West since 1949, both have resulted, in the last few decades at least, in increasingly materialistic societies in which morality and ethics seem to take a distant back seat to other concerns (demonstrated at times in alarming terms, especially in China or so it seems - like the infamous incident of the little girl run over by a truck, etc). |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Please don't take it as a criticism by me ... as said, I find such variations and "mistakes" interesting and at times entertaining. A minor confession: I sometimes make them on porpoise, myself. |
None taken cuz....I love the world of misuse... like the island of misfit toys...the broken syntax has a home in the autumn of my madness....
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| like the infamous incident of the little girl run over by a truck, etc). |
very sad indeed....however, if you think of the indifference in the U.S. to the migrant farmer...there was d a doco made in the late 60's .. then Mike Wallace did one in the late 90's .... 6 years migrant farmers tried to get the owners to the table.. they refuse... it was only through the purchase power of the fast food industry and Walmart that changes came their way... still the larger groceries stores will not join their effort...one penny a pound more to help those who are in need and most don't want to pay it ...whole sale price ..not retail....what we witness with the poor child is amplified each day by those children of migrant workers who supply most of my "Brethren" with cheap veggies... |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
very sad indeed....however, if you think of the indifference in the U.S. to the migrant farmer...there was d a doco made in the late 60's .. then Mike Wallace did one in the late 90's .... 6 years migrant farmers tried to get the owners to the table.. they refuse... it was only through the purchase power of the fast food industry and Walmart that changes came their way... still the larger groceries stores will not join their effort...one penny a pound more to help those who are in need and most don't want to pay it ...whole sale price ..not retail....what we witness with the poor child is amplified each day by those children of migrant workers who supply most of my "Brethren" with cheap veggies... |
Another valid point, I have to admit. You're like butter lately (on a roll, that is). Perhaps some tragedies of indifference / ignorance are simply easier to recognize or attach an image to than others, and therefore attract more outrage. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| Lions lives matter......what matters is what ever grabs the attention of the media.. is what we pay attention to .... like Ole Malcolm said , the media creates our truth ... but in my reality all tragic circumstances either singular or shared by a culture or group are equal in weight and never should be used to tip the scales of concern .... the indifference that exist in present day to day living reflects the fears of complication and involvement and the cost associated with those choices... |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| Lions lives matter......what matters is what ever grabs the attention of the media.. is what we pay attention to .... like Ole Malcolm said , the media creates our truth ... |
True. Marshall McLuhan, haskell Wexler, among others (and doubtless ol' Will Shakespeare among them, though I can't be bothered to dig up a relevant quote) have noted it too. Public perception is so skewed and manipulated by the media, the talking head dummies on cable news seem to be perfectly oblivious, but the execs at the top are cynical exploiters and could even be called, eh... predatory, and the public are the (mostly willing) victims.
And media-generated outrage is more of a passing distraction to keep the item in the news cycle a bit longer than anything substantive, as demonstrated by how all those outraged tweets #broughtourgirlshome in Nigeria... emphatically, NOT. |
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asiannationmc
Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| When it all comes down to it.. we all know what is the right thing to do ... lookin to others for approval of what we are already going to do would indicate ..at least in my mind..... that there is some hesitation as to the right or wrong in a situation....I personally cannot attribute a moral decision to a post.....or a skill level as an indicator of the value someone can offer students...or an industry as a whole .. determining need is relative to a persons situation and their level of social ability and work ethic as they understand it...I cannot fault someone for making the choice they think is best for them... but when it comes to posting on a chat board, opinions are going to flow like a creek-bed rising with indigent observations. I continue to be talked into continued work situations with my former employer, and mostly due to the observations of supervisors unhappy with the newly hired crop of foreign teachers.....the complaint is .... not stable nor dependable ....and unwilling to take charge of their own OJT.... however I can tell you .. with each passing day ....my reluctance to continue working . has invited a horn of plenty of job offers.....you can always rest on past laurels ....but you gotta have a past to be able to rest....and there is no past without a present working situation and someone to remember that past with respect and the willingness to share the attributes you have exhibited in the past.... |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| asiannationmc wrote: |
| When it all comes down to it.. we all know what is the right thing to do ... lookin to others for approval of what we are already going to do would indicate ..at least in my mind..... that there is some hesitation as to the right or wrong in a situation....I personally cannot attribute a moral decision to a post.....or a skill level as an indicator of the value someone can offer students...or an industry as a whole .. determining need is relative to a persons situation and their level of social ability and work ethic as they understand it...I cannot fault someone for making the choice they think is best for them... but when it comes to posting on a chat board, opinions are going to flow like a creek-bed rising with indigent observations. I continue to be talked into continued work situations with my former employer, and mostly due to the observations of supervisors unhappy with the newly hired crop of foreign teachers.....the complaint is .... not stable nor dependable ....and unwilling to take charge of their own OJT.... however I can tell you .. with each passing day ....my reluctance to continue working . has invited a horn of plenty of job offers.....you can always rest on past laurels ....but you gotta have a past to be able to rest....and there is no past without a present working situation and someone to remember that past with respect and the willingness to share the attributes you have exhibited in the past.... |
Amin. |
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