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Angel.Ro
Joined: 09 May 2015
Posts: 59
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 Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:57 am Post subject: ESL Question |
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Hey, just a quick question for the teachers here. The consensus is that Uni jobs and public school jobs are a lot better than private centres, but is it common to land one of those jobs as your first ESL position in China? Or is it generally the case that you need to start at a private centre to get a year under your belt and meet contacts before you can move onto the better jobs?
Thanks!
Last edited by Angel.Ro on Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Uni jobs are very easy to get. The harder jobs to get are at international schools. Maybe some really sought-after university posts are harder to get. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: |
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For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
That is not necessarily true, and several of the "certified" teachers I know actually just completed a course and never actually became licensed to teach in a western country.
In any case, there are many private "international" schools that strongly prefer but don't necessarily require certification. Harder to get than a training center but if you have some experience and/or a flashy degree it's not too hard. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| hdeth wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
That is not necessarily true, and several of the "certified" teachers I know actually just completed a course and never actually became licensed to teach in a western country.
In any case, there are many private "international" schools that strongly prefer but don't necessarily require certification. Harder to get than a training center but if you have some experience and/or a flashy degree it's not too hard. |
I use certified and licensed interchangeably. Registered is another equivalent term in my country.
Another guide to an international school is the students. These will be expat kids who expect to rejoin their home country education system on completion of their parent foreign assignment.
As others have mentioned, the use of the word 'international' can simply be a marketing gimmick or it can be as I've mentioned above. |
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Angel.Ro
Joined: 09 May 2015
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
From what I've read here, the hiring cycle is April/May, correct? Is that the same for both University and public school jobs? |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| hdeth wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
That is not necessarily true, and several of the "certified" teachers I know actually just completed a course and never actually became licensed to teach in a western country.
In any case, there are many private "international" schools that strongly prefer but don't necessarily require certification. Harder to get than a training center but if you have some experience and/or a flashy degree it's not too hard. |
I use certified and licensed interchangeably. Registered is another equivalent term in my country.
Another guide to an international school is the students. These will be expat kids who expect to rejoin their home country education system on completion of their parent foreign assignment.
As others have mentioned, the use of the word 'international' can simply be a marketing gimmick or it can be as I've mentioned above. |
There are expat kids at my 'international' school.Not a lot, but some.
I know quite a few people who did some online teaching course over the summer to get their foot in the door here and get better pay, and maybe down the line teach at a more 'real' international school. Some of them never even had experience as student teachers, much less teachers, back in the states. That's not to say they're bad at their job but what "certified" means in China can be a bit blurry. You can be "certified" here but not able to teach in the states because you never did the student teacher hours required. People teach in China for a few years, realize that certified teacher status gives them a bigger paycheck, do a program over the summer or online and move up the food chain a bit.
There are simply too many jobs to fill to be too picky...I doubt there's more than 2-3 schools in China that could potentially insist on home country experience and I doubt they do. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Angel.Ro wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
For a true international school job you need home country registration and some years of classroom experience.
The limiting factor for public sector (high schools and unis) is the hiring cycle. |
From what I've read here, the hiring cycle is April/May, correct? Is that the same for both University and public school jobs? |
Two hiring cycles pretty much although jobs do come up in the public area at other times.
Main intake is 1 Sept with a somewhat smaller intake for spring semester which starts after Chinese NY. This is lunar so moves around a bit.
You can get the Chinese calendars at Timeanddate.com.
I would say May-June for 1 Sept as the FAO people have teacher holidays or nearly so.
For Spring I'd say November-December.
On both better start earlier than later.
My impression of High Schools, based on student feedback is that FTs are worked pretty hard and mostly housed off campus which means a commute. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:49 am Post subject: |
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That 'certified' thing is very unclear. I mean, you can take a 30-day course and be ESL/EFL certified. Even those silly online things give one the right to say s/he is 'certified.' It's got no relationship to 'licensed' teachers who have actual university qualifications in teaching.
A school that confuses certified with licensed wouldn't be likely to be a real international school, I think - unless the education system in China is even dodgier than I realized. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| A school that confuses certified with licensed wouldn't be likely to be a real international school, I think - unless the education system in China is even dodgier than I realized. |
Real? More real? Actual? Flashy? Boy Howdy.
As Spiral rightfully notes, recognized IB (International Baccalaureate) schools typically require registered/licensed teachers, a procedure fulfilled by university study and government mandate (policy). But what hdeth vaguely describes are private schools that have taken the moniker of "international" to cater to a growing class of wealth keen to send students abroad via programs that emphasize western testing, e.g., SAT/ACT and TOEFL/IELTS.
As such schools schools are for-profit enterprises, dodgy is not an undeserved criticism, but the "education system" of China is far larger than this segment and undergoing development without precedent. If statistics exist on rates of acceptance (abroad) for this class of schools, I can't find them. It's not in anyone's interest to curb the flow of money they engender. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| But what hdeth vaguely describes are private schools that have taken the moniker of "international" to cater to a growing class of wealth keen to send students abroad via programs that emphasize western testing, e.g., SAT/ACT and TOEFL/IELTS |
These things exist in 'my' part of the world as well, but I think it's a little clearer to everyone (probably including the parents involved) that they are not a top-drawer segment of the education system. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| These things exist in 'my' part of the world as well, but I think it's a little clearer to everyone (probably including the parents involved) that they are not a top-drawer segment of the education system. |
I'm unsure how one attests to what's more clear (or not) to everyone, but if your point is caveat emptor, I wholly agree. But then I'm a child of Great Society education. I'm a proponent of socialist ideals in regard to education and of a minority for some time now.
My point being, no, an "international" school with a high tuition, making claims through charter what it cannot through accreditation/authorization, is not "top-drawer" while claiming it is just that, ironically enough.
But I'll repeat this: development without precedent. And add: of a population size without peer. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: ESL Question |
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| Angel.Ro wrote: |
Hey, just a quick question for the teachers here. The consensus is that Uni jobs and public school jobs are a lot better than private centres, but is it common to land one of those jobs as your first ESL position in China? Or is it generally the case that you need to start at a private centre to get a year under your belt and meet contacts before you can move onto the better jobs?
Thanks! |
I'm not sure if one is better than another, generally speaking. Quality/benefits vary from university to university, center to center, and city-to-city. Generally speaking, the mills will pay more, but the trade-off is time. If you work for a language center, you'll usually be working while university teachers are finished for the day and week.
Yes, it is possible to work for a university for one's first job in China. Prior experience and credentials will usually determine the quality of university that will accept you. I say usually because I've worked with bozos at a good university who got a job simply because the FAO had to fill a position ASAP. They had difficulty finding their derrieres with both hands when they arrived, and their performance in class indicated even less competence.
So yes, it's possible to land a university job in China as one's first job. I'm not sure about international schools unless you have attractive credentials.The more you have to offer any school, the more desirable you'll be to any prospective employer.
Since the topic was raised about western educational licensure and certification, I think a few things should be clarified. In the U.S.. In the U.S., the two terms are used interchangeably (though I'm sure that the opportunity exists for one to split hairs regarding the definition). I believe that licensure is the preferred term in the U.S..
One need not be an education major to become licensed in most instances. In some states in the U.S., there are alternate routes to licensure which require a few extra courses beyond a BA or an MA. In a couple of states where there has been poor testing performance, schools are really pushing the alternate route to bring in older former students. Further, the requirements in some states specifically exclude previous teaching experience in a public school system, prior licensure, and all major degrees in education. This is strange but true. The education degree has lost its lustre and is quickly becoming a professional boat anchor. It has been widely observed that those who pursue education degrees in the U.S. tend not to be the brightest bulbs on the professional Marquee of Life.
For those who graduate with a BA and an MA in education: one takes the Praxis I and sometimes the Praxis II tests in one's area of educational expertise as well as general knowledge, and (depending upon the state) one may also be required to take a mathematics competency test. Some states may have even more requirements for licensure. One can probably check it out on Wikipedia.
Last edited by OhBudPowellWhereArtThou on Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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When I mentioned 'certified' I should have made that 'currently certified'.
Not sure about renewal period but 3-5 years seems about right.
Certification body ie Teachers Council has the power to discipline or cancel certification for misbehaviour.
In the international school (Guangzhou) I'm most familiar with the existing FT body has a pretty big say in who is hired.
They are all certified teachers with Canadian or US credentials so guess who they hire? |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But what hdeth vaguely describes are private schools that have taken the moniker of "international" to cater to a growing class of wealth keen to send students abroad via programs that emphasize western testing, e.g., SAT/ACT and TOEFL/IELTS |
These things exist in 'my' part of the world as well, but I think it's a little clearer to everyone (probably including the parents involved) that they are not a top-drawer segment of the education system. |
I would bet many Chinese parents would prefer to send their kids to my 'international' school than to a true international school. They'll get good grades and basically all but a few of the worst students get into western universities. If they're good students they get an ultra-modern campus, pretty decent teachers, and a lot of leeway to study what they want. The top students are lavished with attention and get a pretty amazing education, particularly in science and math. At a true international school the bottom half would probably flunk out and the top students would be bored out of their mind with the slow pace of western schools so...who's to say which is 'better.'
I think the management here is fairly incompetent when it comes to running a school but the school serves at least one niche. |
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