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3701 W.119th
Joined: 26 Feb 2014
Posts: 386
Location: Central China
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 Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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I mostly enjoyed working at a 'mill'. They were serious about teaching, with serious adult students who wanted to learn, and there was plenty of support there, if required. The money was good. The only thing I didn't like was the schedule. Not the total hours (a 40 hour week is par for the course 'back home'), but just the scheduling. Working 12-9, and Saturday and Sunday. Not for me. Give me 9-5 or 8-5, Mon - Fri, and i'm happy. Some like the mill schedule though.
I reckon most (but not all) of the negative sentiment around 'mill' jobs comes from people who hopped on a plane to China to 'teach', but lacked the skills or basic training to do so.
This year at a university job, I'm working hard, but really enjoying it. I love the freedom to create my own course based on student needs, motivations, etc. But I wonder how the fresh-off-the-plane, 24 years old gap-year crowd, can do a university job effectively. Show movies and sing songs? |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:28 am Post subject: |
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"...I reckon most (but not all) of the negative sentiment around 'mill' jobs comes from people who hopped on a plane to China to 'teach', but lacked the skills or basic training to do so..."
Unfortunately, this is often the case, even in public universities. FTs are required to possess a minimum of a BA in something--- anything--- yet when they arrive, they demonstrate no concept of how a class is to be conducted. One must wonder what they did in college.
"...This year at a university job, I'm working hard, but really enjoying it. I love the freedom to create my own course based on student needs, motivations, etc. But I wonder how the fresh-off-the-plane, 24 years old gap-year crowd, can do a university job effectively. Show movies and sing songs?..."
The original question centered around whether the up-front expenses in coming to China to TEACH was worthwhile to the prospective teacher. Few express a consideration of the value of their presence in China to the student as you have.
You wonder how well a 24 year-old new graduate can perform in the Chinese class room. Unfortunately, the ones who might make the most effective teachers seem not to come to China to teach in a university. University teachers with whom I have worked in China are attracted to the low class load. Sure. Sixteen to twenty hours of class seems like little work. They don't realize that showing up for class is just half the responsibility. The other half is designing and implementing their curriculum, most of whom I have met appear to be thoroughly incapable of doing so.
So what do they do?
One supposed lawyer sang songs in class (in a university English class! A lawyer certainly should be able to shed insight into the English language in a unique and interesting way).
Another played games.
Another played his guitar.
Another (who was well beyond twenty-four years old) taught his class insults and obscenities).
It is good that you are spending your time working on creating an effective curriculum and a student-centered class room. You are making your efforts to come to China a worthwhile experience for the student.
I applaud you. |
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RiverMystic
Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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It's about being smart, and patient. You can end up working forty hours a week for 10000, which is a bad deal, IMHO. Most likely cram schools. But you can get jobs for nearly or around that much which require no more than 20 total hours. You can then do privates if you like or work on writing the great American novel, or whatever does it for you.
Spend a year or two developing skills and a reputation. Get CELTA or the like.
I have a good gig, nearly 20K after tax, nice free apartment, often very little work. During busy periods I work four days a week, about four hours each of those days including prep. They make me sit in the office six hours a week, but I just write my books and study Chinese. |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| JohnE3294 wrote: |
Thanks to everyone for all of the great responses - really enjoy reading through them.
With regards to being a subject teacher, do you need to be licensed teacher to teach anything other than English in China? |
Look at the AP subjects. They are the hot item and most of them are related to math or a science. My school would prefer to have a licensed teacher but there just aren't enough with the appropriate background. So the lower-level classes are usually taught by someone with the right educational background but no licensure. Some are taught by Chinese teachers with strong backgrounds as well.
Look at the AP subjects and think if your degree matches up with one, then make a strong argument to the school that you're a good fit. If you have a math or related science degree you can probably find a subject matter teaching job.
They will probably pay you less than a teacher with licensure but if you're interested in the subject it can be a lot more fun and better paid than just teaching English. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| hdeth wrote: |
Look at the AP subjects. They are the hot item and most of them are related to math or a science. |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
You do realize that Chinese students take AP exams in a SECOND FRIGGIN LANGUAGE? Yeah Chinese students must not be well rounded if they only took sciences, econ, and math AP's in addition to SAT's IN ENGLISH. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| hdeth wrote: |
| JohnE3294 wrote: |
Thanks to everyone for all of the great responses - really enjoy reading through them.
With regards to being a subject teacher, do you need to be licensed teacher to teach anything other than English in China? |
Look at the AP subjects. They are the hot item and most of them are related to math or a science. My school would prefer to have a licensed teacher but there just aren't enough with the appropriate background. So the lower-level classes are usually taught by someone with the right educational background but no licensure. Some are taught by Chinese teachers with strong backgrounds as well.
Look at the AP subjects and think if your degree matches up with one, then make a strong argument to the school that you're a good fit. If you have a math or related science degree you can probably find a subject matter teaching job.
They will probably pay you less than a teacher with licensure but if you're interested in the subject it can be a lot more fun and better paid than just teaching English. |
Many Chinese "international" schools or international departments within Chinese High Schools accept a master's in a related field in lieu of a teaching license or credential. Also, once you gain experience it's easy to find jobs. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| hdeth wrote: |
Look at the AP subjects. They are the hot item and most of them are related to math or a science. |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
This touches on something that I have been thinking about. When I started teaching subjects the program not only had a hard time filling the "left brained" subjects, but a very hard time finding people who could actually teach business and economics beyond simply following the books. Now it is five years later and the demand for subject teachers has grown rapidly. Where are these people coming from?
I don't think they are coming from anywhere. I think that most programs have simply lowered their expectations as to what constitutes a qualified subject teacher and more teachers have learned how to fluff their resumes so they can obtain a generally higher paying position.
Hence, I think these positions are generally obtainable for those inclined to fluff and study up a little. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
You do realize that Chinese students take AP exams in a SECOND FRIGGIN LANGUAGE? Yeah Chinese students must not be well rounded if they only took sciences, econ, and math AP's in addition to SAT's IN ENGLISH. |
Requirements and standardized tests should not take into account native language. It is called lowering the bar for profit, and it is really unfair to not only students in the US, but also the tax payers who end up funding these institutions in one way or another. In California there is a curriculum based on breadth requirements in high schools. Foreign languages, maths, science, economics will only get one halfway to entrance requirements for most public universities in California. It seems more reasonable that foreign students not meeting the requirements would first go to a community college to fulfill them before being accepted to the universities. That is what a local has to do if they do not meet the requirements.
Sorry OP, my last comment on this. Wasn't my plan to derail the thread, but it does often happen as the page count goes up  |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| hdeth wrote: |
Look at the AP subjects. They are the hot item and most of them are related to math or a science. |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
My school teaches every AP subject except one or two that are banned (US government and politics I think is banned, maybe one other). Take a look at the AP website. Some of the subjects were definitely not taught at my high school growing up. You might be surprised. Psychology definitely wasn't taught at my high school, or human geography, or several of the other subjects. History is highly in demand.
I don't know and China doesn't care what classes you took in college. It's what your degree is in that matters.
I don't understand why the taxpayer would be happier sending Chinese students to heavily subsidized community college instead of having them pay exorbitant tuition at a poorly funded state school. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
You certainly mean the AP subjects in China. I took biology, chem, physics AP, and economics, which might all fit in here. However, I also took English (lit), Spanish, history, politics, and geography, not so much fitting in here in China. That is also in combination with SAT IIs which might be teachable. Not all subjects are desired here though, makes you wonder how students get admitted when the locals in the US have to show themselves as well rounded. |
You do realize that Chinese students take AP exams in a SECOND FRIGGIN LANGUAGE? Yeah Chinese students must not be well rounded if they only took sciences, econ, and math AP's in addition to SAT's IN ENGLISH. |
Requirements and standardized tests should not take into account native language. It is called lowering the bar for profit, and it is really unfair to not only students in the US, but also the tax payers who end up funding these institutions in one way or another. In California there is a curriculum based on breadth requirements in high schools. Foreign languages, maths, science, economics will only get one halfway to entrance requirements for most public universities in California. It seems more reasonable that foreign students not meeting the requirements would first go to a community college to fulfill them before being accepted to the universities. That is what a local has to do if they do not meet the requirements.
Sorry OP, my last comment on this. Wasn't my plan to derail the thread, but it does often happen as the page count goes up |
Nope, sorry. International students bring diversity of thought and culture to a University, and only compete with other students in the "international" category. International students are asked to demonstrate that they are academically capable, but are not asked to have taken the same curriculum as domestic students because of the way they enrich the university experience. |
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getbehindthemule
Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 712
Location: Shanghai
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
Nope, sorry. International students bring diversity of thought and culture to a University, and only compete with other students in the "international" category. International students are asked to demonstrate that they are academically capable, but are not asked to have taken the same curriculum as domestic students because of the way they enrich the university experience. |
What universities are you writing about, and what government regs are in place? |
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Stonefield
Joined: 03 Oct 2015
Posts: 7
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| RiverMystic wrote: |
It's about being smart, and patient. You can end up working forty hours a week for 10000, which is a bad deal, IMHO. Most likely cram schools. But you can get jobs for nearly or around that much which require no more than 20 total hours. You can then do privates if you like or work on writing the great American novel, or whatever does it for you.
Spend a year or two developing skills and a reputation. Get CELTA or the like.
I have a good gig, nearly 20K after tax, nice free apartment, often very little work. During busy periods I work four days a week, about four hours each of those days including prep. They make me sit in the office six hours a week, but I just write my books and study Chinese. |
.. I like this post. encouraging take and info. You have exactly the kind of gig id like to get. I have 5 years of full time ESL experience. over 4000 classroom hours [s korea] . any good leads to schools / cities where theres a good supply of jobs like you have would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again..  |
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