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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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 Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
I'm studying to become a qualified secondary teacher at the moment (History and English) as I want to eventually teach in international schools. For the better international schools they usually require relevant experience, but, if you get your foot in the door with a tier two school then it is possible to move up.
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If I have to bite the bullet and teach for two years in Kuwait or Saudi in one of the schools [VS] described above then so be it. I'd probably just do my best, count down the days, enjoy the long holidays and try to save some coin. If doing that for two years means that I would have a decent shot at getting a good, well-paying job in Thailand, the Philippines, Fiji, Bali etc. for the next twenty years then I'm prepared to pay my dues. |
It would difficult to get your foot in the door of an international school in the Gulf without a degree in English and licensure/qualification to teach English (not ESOL). As for teaching history to nationals, unless you're extremely knowledgeable about Kuwaiti and Saudi culture and history, the subject would only be taught in IB/western-curriculum schools.
By the way, if you're studying via distance learning, both the Kuwaiti and Saudi governments (as well as Qatar) don't accept degrees/qualifications that entailed online coursework. The exception is the UAE; however, again, you'd need very specific academic credentials in addition to relevant experience gained in your home country. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
I'm studying to become a qualified secondary teacher at the moment (History and English) as I want to eventually teach in international schools. For the better international schools they usually require relevant experience, but, if you get your foot in the door with a tier two school then it is possible to move up.
....
If I have to bite the bullet and teach for two years in Kuwait or Saudi in one of the schools [VS] described above then so be it. I'd probably just do my best, count down the days, enjoy the long holidays and try to save some coin. If doing that for two years means that I would have a decent shot at getting a good, well-paying job in Thailand, the Philippines, Fiji, Bali etc. for the next twenty years then I'm prepared to pay my dues. |
It would difficult to get your foot in the door of an international school in the Gulf without a degree in English and licensure/qualification to teach English (not ESOL). As for teaching history to nationals, unless you're extremely knowledgeable about Kuwaiti and Saudi culture and history, the subject would only be taught in IB/western-curriculum schools. |
Read quite a bit about 20th and 21st century Saudi Arabian history, but not a lot about Kuwait. However, I'd be delighted to learn more and I read history voraciously. My second teaching area will be in English/English Literature and I have sufficient credit points in this subject to make me qualified to teach this anywhere in Australia (once a complete the Graduate Diploma of Education).
| nomad soul wrote: |
| By the way, if you're studying via distance learning, both the Kuwaiti and Saudi governments (as well as Qatar) don't accept degrees/qualifications that entailed online coursework. The exception is the UAE; however, again, you'd need very specific academic credentials in addition to relevant experience gained in your home country. |
Thanks for that. I am doing the Grad Dip Ed via online learning, but there are two practicums that I will have do in Australia. They take just over a month each. Once I finish the Grad Dip Ed then I'll be a licensed, qualified secondary teacher, eligible for registration in any state in Oz. I know that Qatar international schools appear to pay extremely well and I wouldn't expect to crack that nut after just being certified. However, if my qualifications won't be considered good enough for a second tier international school full of spoiled, lazy, Kuwaiti and/or Saudi brats then, quite frankly, screw 'em  . They are not my second, third or even fourth choice and the only reason I was considering Kuwait and Saudi is because so many of their international schools always seem to be advertising and the opportunity to save a decent nest egg is good. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
However, if my qualifications won't be considered good enough for a second tier international school full of spoiled, lazy, Kuwaiti and/or Saudi brats then, quite frankly, screw 'em . |
The sub mediocre schools in Saudi Arabia doesn't keep the Saudis from making pronouncements against anything that sounds cheap, on paper only of course. Have to look good with the fellow Al Khatanis, Al Subais etc.  |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| They especially dislike people with online qualifications. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks plumpynut and scot47. To be honest, I find the discrimination against online university study to be, at best, a little narrow minded and old fashioned. The university I'm doing my Education qualification through is one of the best in Australia and I am being assessed in exactly the same way as the internal students. Plus, we are expected to participate in the same tutorials, listen to the same lectures, use the same books etc. Instead of being on campus, you just do it online.
Besides, why do so many people choose to study externally? In a majority of cases, I would suggest it is because the student is also working. Personally, I've got a lot more respect for a graduate who juggled a full-time job and then went home to study every night over some twenty-something who just had to go to uni nine months a year and had mommy and daddy footing all their bills. If I was an employer, with all things being equal, I know which one I'd hire. That's just how I see it, but, I suspect for many on this forum, I'm preaching to the converted.
Anyway, it is not something that I have to worry about for a while and, if certain GCC states aren't possible, then, like I said, that's fine. Worst case scenario, I'll just go outback in Oz for a while and, who knows, I might end up loving it. There is a whole world out there, and, dare I say, many parts of it are much more appealing and enjoyable places to live and work than Kuwait or the KSA  . |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I know that Qatar international schools appear to pay extremely well and I wouldn't expect to crack that nut after just being certified. However, if my qualifications won't be considered good enough for a second tier international school full of spoiled, lazy, Kuwaiti and/or Saudi brats then, quite frankly, screw 'em . |
It's not the employers that reject credentials with online coursework; this is a government requirement for foreigners applying for a proper employment/work visa.
You likely wouldn't be teaching at those anyway unless you're Muslim and probably fluent in Arabic. Again, the better international schools will want related degrees and licensure in addition to experience. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I know that Qatar international schools appear to pay extremely well and I wouldn't expect to crack that nut after just being certified. However, if my qualifications won't be considered good enough for a second tier international school full of spoiled, lazy, Kuwaiti and/or Saudi brats then, quite frankly, screw 'em . |
It's not the employers that reject credentials with online coursework; this is a government requirement for foreigners applying for a proper employment/work visa. |
Sorry, I probably should have expressed myself better. I gathered that it was a governmental requirement and if those are the rules, then, like I said, that's fine and I'll just look elsewhere.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Again, the better international schools will want related degrees and licensure in addition to experience. |
That's why I thought, (if I couldn't find anything more appealing), that I'd shoot for the second tier schools in Saudi and/or Kuwait to get the experience. Like I said, they are always advertising and I got the impression that they were very keen to get licensed Western teachers and that they might be flexible when it comes to the issue of experience. If these second tier schools require and can get experienced, 'on campus' trained, certified, licensed Western teachers who are prepared to live in the Gulf and teach Gulf students, for the amount they are prepared to pay, then good luck to them. However, given the amount of job ads I've seen, I somewhat doubt it. Anyway, if their expectations, or their government's regulations, are unrealistic then that's not my problem. Plenty of other schools and countries out there.
The issues I may encounter are common when you are changing careers. Employers want experience, but very few of them will offer you the chance to gain experience. I've been through this before and I'm sure a lot of us have. You've just got be realistic, be flexible, keep your eyes and ears open and understand that just because you have to start at a certain rung on the ladder, that doesn't mean that you have to stay there. Besides, I might just happen to be at the right place at the right time and get lucky. It's happened to me and plenty of other people I know before . |
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="1st Sgt Welsh"][quote="nomad soul"]
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I'm studying to become a qualified secondary teacher at the moment (History and English) as I want to eventually teach in international schools. |
1 - There seems to be a great deal of misunderstanding as to what qualifies as an "international" school.
It used to be that the term was used exclusively for schools set up by citizens of the US/UK/UFrance and a couple of other "ex-colonials" in foreign countries for the children of these expats. The idea was that these expats wanted an education for their children not too dissimilar to what they would get "back home". Going to "local" schools was most often not an option for a variety of reasons. (This remains true today).
2- But it now appears (here- on Dave's ESL board) that people are naming ANY K-12 school that's located "overseas" (from one's own country, I guess) as an "international" school.
This is a total misinterpretation and misunderstanding of what a true "international" school is.
(What I have to say below is relevant to US "international" schools. The Brits, the French, the Germans and so on, of course, work under a different system. But their primary objective - to educate their children in a similar environment to what they would get back home, is what unites them).
I know what I'm talking about because I'm a graduate of one of these international schools. In fact, my high school record shows attendance at (Cairo American College (why they called it "college", I don't know....it was a K-12 school), Karachi American School and Heidelberg American School). (Whether any of these schools still exist, I don't know). (When I attended these schools, US nationals in those countries (Egypt, Pakistan, Germany) were numerous enough to support a primary/secondary school. Whether that is true today, I don't know).
These were "real" international schools because they were exclusively for children of expats living in those countries, were taught largely by American teachers using an American curriculum [in the Heidelberg school, German was taught as a foreign language  ], the SATs were given and taken annually and sports included baseball (yawn) and football. Underground smoking and beer drinking was part of the scene. There was even a drama club, shop and home economics. The annual "prom" was a major event rivaling graduation and Halloween was seriously celebrated. They even offered "Latin", which I took. "Cliques" abounded. And, as I recall, these schools were free to Embassy/military dependents (like me). (Children of other US nationals could attend but they had to pay).
All these "real" (American) international schools were fully accredited by one of the regional accrediting agencies in the USA. That is, all credits earned at these schools were fully accepted by any other accredited school or college throughout the USA.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation.
In other words, educationally and legally, I may as well have been attending school in Cedar Falls, Iowa or Battle Creek, Michigan as far as grade/high school were concerned.
But if you're talking about a "local" Saudi or Qatari school, for example, those aren't "international" schools in the sense I mean above. These are purely LOCAL schools teaching a vastly different curriculum to what would be found in the kinds of grade and high schools I attended. There are thousands, possibly tens of thousands of these schools world-wide. They cater to and will accept only LOCAL children speaking the local language. I believe it is extremely difficult for a non-Saudi child to attend a LOCAL Saudi school, for example. There must be, I believe, an extraordinary set of circumstances for this to be possible. These local schools don't consider themselves "international" schools in any way whatsoever.
That's why Nomad Soul suggested that to get hired into one of those LOCAL schools, chances are you'd have to know Arabic (or Spanish or Malay or whatever) because that's the language they use. You'd almost certainly have to be Muslim (at least in KSA) although I knew a Brit in KSA who was far from being religious teaching in a local elementary (!!) school.
If it's at one of these local schools that you want to teach, I have no idea what their "requirements" are. Seems to me, every country would have different requirements. I would imagine a "foreigner" like yourself would have an extremely difficult time getting hired at one of these places and the pay would be a pittance. (The $50,000 a grade school teacher can make in places like California is looked upon with utter astonishment in every other country in the world.)
None of these schools - thousands of them - the LOCAL primary and secondary schools worldwide - is accredited by any USA agency because they are not US institutions, simple as that.
It would be just as hard to land a job in one of the truly "international" (US run) schools. You'd have to be "certified" to teach in your home country and if you were applying at an American run international school, for instance, you'd probably have to have your Ozzie qualifications "certified as acceptable" by some US institution. (I'll tell you right now that getting "certified" in the US to teach at the K-12 level is a hundred times more complicated than it is to get certified to teach at a college).
In addition, and it hasn't been mentioned here, but it's the first thing you're going to run into: these schools practically require that you be married and they much prefer to hire "working couples". In some cases, they make it quite clear that only couples are welcome. If push came to shove, they'll take a single female over a single male.....any day.....even if the female was much less qualified and experienced than the male. (No explanations needed, I don't imagine).
Good luck. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:11 am Post subject: |
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I believe Sgt W is referring to the many quasi "International Schools." These are sometimes even accredited. They teach in English - American or British based curriculum... some doing IB, but the students are mainly locals and a few expats from non-Western countries. There was just a short discussion on ABS in Kuwait which meets this definition. They are private and not related to the government public schools taught in Arabic. They exist in every Gulf country.
As you know these schools can call themselves what they want... just as a legitimate IS... CAC... can call itself a "college" - which I always found so bizarre. I had friends who taught there over the years and it was definitely one of the plum jobs in Egypt along with AUC.
Interesting to find someone who attended CAC here on Dave's. I don't know about the other 2 schools you attended, but CAC is still going.
VS |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I believe Sgt W is referring to the many quasi "International Schools." These are sometimes even accredited. They teach in English - American or British based curriculum... some doing IB, but the students are mainly locals and a few expats from non-Western countries. There was just a short discussion on ABS in Kuwait which meets this definition. They are private and not related to the government public schools taught in Arabic. They exist in every Gulf country. |
These types of schools also exist for the dependents of native English-speaking expats but carry UK, US, Canadian... government accreditation. But I agree that not all schools are created equal. Plus, experience gained at a pseudo American or British-curriculum school won't help get a foot in the door at the better (real) international schools in the region, which tend to recruit licensed k-12 teachers who have experience teaching in their home countries. Apples-n-oranges.
On a related note, see the news article, Islamic studies neglected at international schools. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| I believe Sgt W is referring to the many quasi "International Schools." These are sometimes even accredited. They teach in English - American or British based curriculum... some doing IB, but the students are mainly locals and a few expats from non-Western countries. There was just a short discussion on ABS in Kuwait which meets this definition. They are private and not related to the government public schools taught in Arabic. They exist in every Gulf country. |
Bingo! I'm not sure if I can supply a link here, but if you go to the website "Seek Teachers" and do a search for Kuwait and Saudi Arabia then you will find many of the sort of jobs that I was referring to.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I believe Sgt W is referring to the many quasi "International Schools." These are sometimes even accredited. They teach in English - American or British based curriculum... some doing IB, but the students are mainly locals and a few expats from non-Western countries. There was just a short discussion on ABS in Kuwait which meets this definition. They are private and not related to the government public schools taught in Arabic. They exist in every Gulf country. |
These types of schools also exist for the dependents of native English-speaking expats but carry UK, US, Canadian... government accreditation. But I agree that not all schools are created equal. Plus, experience gained at a pseudo American or British-curriculum school won't help get a foot in the door at the better (real) international schools in the region, which tend to recruit licensed k-12 teachers who have experience teaching in their home countries. Apples-n-oranges. |
To be honest, I'm not especially interested in "the better (real) international schools in the region" and, if I wanted to live indefinitely in the Gulf, I could just remain here as a TEFLer. Indeed, one of the main reasons that I want to work in international schools is because there are many countries that I would love to live in, but TEFLing there is not an option, due to poor pay, etc. However, experience in a second tier Gulf school might help me get a decent job in certain parts of Asia, which is where I want to be anyway. As VS said, some of these schools follow a Western curriculum, are English-speaking and accredited. Those are the only schools I would have been interested in. Anyway, like I mentioned, Kuwait and the KSA are not on the top of my list and I was only interested in them because I knew I could save and because I'd heard that they had real difficulties getting staff and that they might look the other way when it came to the issue of experience. Malaysia and China also look like real possibilities and there are plenty of jobs there too.
I have spoken to a lot of people and I keep hearing different things about what's needed to land a decent international school gig. But, as I mentioned, it is not urgent at this stage. If it turns out that I really should do a couple of years back in Australia, working out in the bush, then so be it. I lived in outback Queensland as a child and it didn't kill me. Other opportunities may present themselves in regards to 'teacher training' around the world within TEFL and that actually interests me as well. There are also some sweet gigs with the British Council, Sri Lanka springs to mind, and I'd love to work there! The problem is so do a lot of people, but, being a certified teacher might make the difference. In other words, even if I do remain in TEFL, being a qualified teacher won't hurt. However, firstly, I've got to complete the qualification, which is still some time away, and then I can go from there. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| These types of schools also exist for the dependents of native English-speaking expats but carry UK, US, Canadian... government accreditation. But I agree that not all schools are created equal. Plus, experience gained at a pseudo American or British-curriculum school won't help get a foot in the door at the better (real) international schools in the region, which tend to recruit licensed k-12 teachers who have experience teaching in their home countries. Apples-n-oranges. |
To be honest, I'm not especially interested in "the better (real) international schools in the region" and, if I wanted to live indefinitely in the Gulf, I could just remain here as a TEFLer. Indeed, one of the main reasons that I want to work in international schools is because there are many countries that I would love to live in, but TEFLing there is not an option, due to poor pay, etc. However, experience in a second tier Gulf school might help me get a decent job in certain parts of Asia, which is where I want to be anyway. As VS said, some of these schools follow a Western curriculum, are English-speaking and accredited. Those are the only schools I would have been interested in. Anyway, like I mentioned, Kuwait and the KSA are not on the top of my list and I was only interested in them because I knew I could save and because I'd heard that they had real difficulties getting staff and that they might look the other way when it came to the issue of experience. Malaysia and China also look like real possibilities and there are plenty of jobs there too. |
Actually, my comments were in general since your qualifications/online studies would put you out of the running for international schools in the Gulf. However, that's not the case for the OP of this thread given his/her qualifications, including experience teaching high school in the US. But I agree, China likely has plentiful international school jobs. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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And Sgt W... 2-3 years teaching in the outback would look better on your CV to International schools around the world.
VS |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| These types of schools also exist for the dependents of native English-speaking expats but carry UK, US, Canadian... government accreditation. But I agree that not all schools are created equal. Plus, experience gained at a pseudo American or British-curriculum school won't help get a foot in the door at the better (real) international schools in the region, which tend to recruit licensed k-12 teachers who have experience teaching in their home countries. Apples-n-oranges. |
To be honest, I'm not especially interested in "the better (real) international schools in the region" and, if I wanted to live indefinitely in the Gulf, I could just remain here as a TEFLer. Indeed, one of the main reasons that I want to work in international schools is because there are many countries that I would love to live in, but TEFLing there is not an option, due to poor pay, etc. However, experience in a second tier Gulf school might help me get a decent job in certain parts of Asia, which is where I want to be anyway. As VS said, some of these schools follow a Western curriculum, are English-speaking and accredited. Those are the only schools I would have been interested in. Anyway, like I mentioned, Kuwait and the KSA are not on the top of my list and I was only interested in them because I knew I could save and because I'd heard that they had real difficulties getting staff and that they might look the other way when it came to the issue of experience. Malaysia and China also look like real possibilities and there are plenty of jobs there too. |
Actually, my comments were in general since your qualifications/online studies would put you out of the running for international schools in the Gulf. However, that's not the case for the OP of this thread given his/her qualifications, including experience teaching high school in the US. But I agree, China likely has plentiful international school jobs. |
I see. Thanks for the clarification.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
And Sgt W... 2-3 years teaching in the outback would look better on your CV to International schools around the world.
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Thanks. I hope there will be quite a few opportunities once I graduate, but, like I said, if the best thing to do is go outback then so be it . |
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bigdurianthesecond
Joined: 16 Jan 2016
Posts: 62
Location: The Base
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
I'm studying to become a qualified secondary teacher at the moment (History and English) as I want to eventually teach in international schools. For the better international schools they usually require relevant experience, but, if you get your foot in the door with a tier two school then it is possible to move up.
....
If I have to bite the bullet and teach for two years in Kuwait or Saudi in one of the schools [VS] described above then so be it. I'd probably just do my best, count down the days, enjoy the long holidays and try to save some coin. If doing that for two years means that I would have a decent shot at getting a good, well-paying job in Thailand, the Philippines, Fiji, Bali etc. for the next twenty years then I'm prepared to pay my dues. |
It would difficult to get your foot in the door of an international school in the Gulf without a degree in English and licensure/qualification to teach English (not ESOL). As for teaching history to nationals, unless you're extremely knowledgeable about Kuwaiti and Saudi culture and history, the subject would only be taught in IB/western-curriculum schools. |
Read quite a bit about 20th and 21st century Saudi Arabian history, but not a lot about Kuwait. However, I'd be delighted to learn more and I read history voraciously. My second teaching area will be in English/English Literature and I have sufficient credit points in this subject to make me qualified to teach this anywhere in Australia (once a complete the Graduate Diploma of Education).
| nomad soul wrote: |
| By the way, if you're studying via distance learning, both the Kuwaiti and Saudi governments (as well as Qatar) don't accept degrees/qualifications that entailed online coursework. The exception is the UAE; however, again, you'd need very specific academic credentials in addition to relevant experience gained in your home country. |
Thanks for that. I am doing the Grad Dip Ed via online learning, but there are two practicums that I will have do in Australia. They take just over a month each. Once I finish the Grad Dip Ed then I'll be a licensed, qualified secondary teacher, eligible for registration in any state in Oz. I know that Qatar international schools appear to pay extremely well and I wouldn't expect to crack that nut after just being certified. However, if my qualifications won't be considered good enough for a second tier international school full of spoiled, lazy, Kuwaiti and/or Saudi brats then, quite frankly, screw 'em . They are not my second, third or even fourth choice and the only reason I was considering Kuwait and Saudi is because so many of their international schools always seem to be advertising and the opportunity to save a decent nest egg is good. |
Any school that is teaching Saudi history to the students isn't one you want to be working in. I worked in an international school before teaching Social Studies/ world history. There is no expectation on a foreigner to teach Arab history, unless you're going back to the Fertile Crescent and the Sumerians etc. It's the usual things like Romans, Greeks, medieval Europe, WW1,WW2 etc. |
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