Job Discussion Forums

[fpshangzhou]

This can be a good or bad thing for future prospects wanting to work in China. The good is that it might deter less qualified or lacking the passion to teach or for misfits who just want to have a good time in China. Hence, demand gets higher than supply of teachers/foreign experts in their field, but maybe a long shot on that one. The bad can include being stuck in a terrible contract where the school can take advantage of the situation. Thinking optimistically, I would like to think most foreigners here have at least a fair contract and decent working conditions.

BTW, does this black list pertain to the ESL teaching industry specifically, or does it apply to other foreigners working for international companies?

Cheers,

Aaron in China

[avigoldberg]

Um....I wonder what is the chance that someone will get put on the blacklist? If you think about it: How many teachers are hired each term? How many people go and find out that the conditions are not optimal and turn right back around and leave?

Or is this a warning to us to just make sure that we leave and resign in the right way?

[iainjgfletcher]

I was put on the blacklist... went to Thailand and Japan with my wife and worked there while we waited for Canada to issue her PR card ...

Had a wonderful time with every other school I've ever worked for in China... but this school was a steaming pile of @&#*# in an otherwise fun experience...

If you must know... this is what happened



Party A: Zhonghao Foreign Language School / Formerly, Mountie International in Qingdao
Richard – Owner
Angel – Manager
Chris – Assistant Manager to Angel

Party B: Iain Fletcher
Iain has two passports and is a dual-citizen of Canada & Britain.

Party A have:
1. Threatened and extorted Party B.
2. Regarded current contract as legal yet refuses to enact the contract’s stipulations.
3. Didn’t pay Party B according to the amount scheduled in the contract.
4. Has not paid Party B anything for February’s wages or housing rental.
5. Hasn’t made it clear to Party B whether he has insurance.
6. Refuses to reimburse Party B for cost of Z-Visa.
7. Refuses to provide a legal justification why they demand 6000 rmb after Party B gave his written notice of contract cancellation.
8. Inhibits Party B’s ability to be in China by failing to provide a Release Letter or proper cancellation of Foreign Expert Certificate, and made his life difficult because he has not been able to generate any income.
9. Failed to provide a copy of the contract in Chinese as is required by Law. The only copy is in English.
10. Broken Chinese Law by failing to cancel the Foreign Expert Certificate within the legal 30 days period after employee termination as is stipulated by Law.
11. Lied to Party B in 2011 about having the ability to sponsor a Legal Working Z-Visa.
12. Forced Party B into two situations where he had to switch to an illegal Tourist Visa while continuing to work for Party A in 2011.

Party B terminated the contract via Article #C.2.b of the contract which reads:
C. Break the contract
2. Party B has the right to cancel the contract with a written notice to Party A under the following conditions;
b. Party A has not paid Party B as scheduled.
Party B gave his Written Notice of Contract Cancellation on 2012/02/11, after 5 days time and several failed discussions about the right amount of scheduled pay.


Dated Events
2011/10/10 Party A informed Party B, five days before his previous British Z-Visa was to expire that they had lost there ability to sponsor foreigners. Party A lost their ability to sponsor foreigners months before this date, and Party B was not notified. Party B didn’t have sufficient funds to leave the country at that time, and was forced to change his Visa to an illegal Tourist Visa. Party A told Party B not to worry and that they will have the proper means to give him a Z-Visa the next month.

2011/11/09 Party A informed Party B that he will have to fly down to Hong Kong and acquire another Tourist Visa as they still lacked the ability to legally employ foreigners. He was told initially that he was to pay half of the cost of this trip. Angel told him later that she will give him a little extra money over the next couple months to cover the cost.

2011/11/14 Party B returned to Mainland China on a tourist Visa. Party B informed Party A that he was unhappy about being lied to, and that he wished to go home in December and return on a legal Z-Working Visa. Party A agreed.

2011/12/10 Party B returned to Canada and acquired his Canadian Passport. Over his stay, Party A was reissued the ability to sponsor foreign workers. Party B received the necessary papers to acquire a Z-Visa on his Canadian Passport.
Party B paid for the cost.

2012/01/10 Party B returned to China on a legal Z-Visa in his Canadian Passport, and was ready to begin employment once more.

2012/01/12 Party B gave Party A the receipt for the cost of purchacing the Z-Visa, which was paid in Canada by Party B of a total cost of $280 or approximately 2000 RMB, was agreed to be paid to Party B on 2012/02/10 as per Article A.8. which reads:
8. Pay for work visa/ foreign expert / insurance during the period of this contract.

2012/02/05 Contacted Party A for an estimate for 2012/02/10 pay. Party B was concerned about having an insufficient amount for his rental payment.

2012/02/06 Party A’s manager Angel left on vacation providing no answer. Chris notified Party B that he is NOT to be paid according to Article A.6. which reads:
A. The Responsibilities and obligations of Party A
6. Pay Party B salary during Chinese National Holidays.
Instead, Party A’s intent was to pay 10 hours holiday pay for the week of Jan 22nd to Jan 29th. Normal salary for one weeks pay is 22-25 hours.
Furthermore, reimbursement for the Visa, which was paid in Canada by Party B of a total cost of $280 or approximately 2000 RMB, was to be paid on 2012/02/10.
Party A also refused to acknowledge Article A.2 which reads:
2. Pay 1200 per month for Party B rent house since September 2011
Party A refused to acknowledge that the housing allowance was a fixed rate. Instead Party A said they would calculate the working hours on the basis of 90 RMB with no housing allowance, rather than as per Article A.3 which reads:
3. Pay Party B 7800 per month for 100 hours; (from October 2011).
Party B feels that the rate of pay should be 78 RMB per hour.
Party B responded by saying that it was unacceptable to change the contract and both Parties continued to argue until pay day.

2012/02/10 Party A told Party B that he would receive NOTHING unless he agreed to:
1. Approximately 3000 RMB pay.
2. Further delay in the reimbursement of the Visa cost. Party A received the receipt for the cost of the Visa from Party B on 2012/01/12.
3. A personal offer from Richard of 1600 RMB, to be paid at an interval of 200 RMB per month, over an 8 month period.
Party B told Chris that he would engage in further conversation regarding the matter, and although he disagreed with the situation, that he had no choice but to temporarily accept the offer on the condition that he would have a meeting with Richard & Angel in the following week to discuss the validity of the contract..

2012/02/12 Party B returned to work and attempted to resolve the matter once more by having a meeting with Richard and Angel. Both Richard & Angel refused to acknowledge that they have broken the contract by failing to pay Party B as scheduled. Party B rejected Richard’s offer of 1600 at an interval of 200 per month, and gave Party a Written Notice of Contract Cancellation regarding the current issues. Party B also told them to contact him regarding resolution. The Written Notice of Contract Cancellation is in accordance with the agreed upon contract. Article C.2.b.

2012/02/15 Party A contacts Party B with the following email:
Hi Iain
We need a time to talk about how to cancel your work visa, and let you work for other school legally ;
Please come with your girl friend or layer, to help you understand what kinds of troubles will happen after you leave Zhonghao .
My time in this week : Thursday Friday Saturday : 16:00~17:00 or Thursday Friday evening before 20:00
We can talk with each in KFC Zhonglian, not in Zhonghao
Hope to get your reply asap, otherwise we will do what we should do since next Monday, Feburary 12th
Angel
Party B regards, “to help you understand what kinds of troubles will happen after you leave Zhonghao”, as potentially threatening language.

2012/02/16 Party B met Angel at the KFC. Party A attempted to extort 4000 rmb from Party B, and threatened to black list him from China. Angel told Party B that he was right about everything in the contract, but that if Party B doesn’t pay, that he would be forced to leave China.
Initially they demanded to be paid within a week, but after seeing that Party B had no money, they extended their deadline for 4 weeks and they would not hinder Party B in finding a new job and would provide the Release Letter and written notice of Foreign Expert Cancellation. Party A also informed Party B that the 4000 RMB was to cover the cost of finding a new teacher as well as the Hong Kong trip inwhich Party B received an illegal visa. Party B recorded a portion of the conversation in video.

2012/03/04 Party B responded by checking with local Labour Dispute Arbitration officials regarding such matters. Filed an official complaint against Party A. This official complaint involved a 15 day period to mediate the matter or a court case would be opened.
The Labour Dispute Arbitration called Party A to inform them that they had broken Chinese Labour Law.
There was no change in Party A’s decision to extort Party B.

2012/03/05 Labour Dispute Arbitration Officials attempted to contact Party A, but Party A refused to answer their phone calls. Labour Dispute Arbitration Officials suggested Party B to go to the Foreign Expert Certificate Bureau to resolve the issues.
2012/03/09 Party B met with the Foreign Expert Certificate Bureau. Party A were called in by the Bureau, and afterwards they were encouraged by the officer to find resolution. Both Party’s were found potentially guilt of neglect and were encouraged to resolve the issue out of court. Party B was informed by the Expert Certificate Bureau’s Manager that Chinese Contract Law says that an employee is obligated to continue working for an employer for 30 days.
After the meeting, Party B found out that Chinese Labour Law actually says: 《中华人民共和国劳动法》第三十八条 用人单位有下列情形之一的，劳动者可以解除劳动合同：（一）未按照劳动合同约定提供劳动保护或者劳动条件的；（二）未及时足额支付劳动报酬的；（三）未依法为劳动者缴纳社会保险费的；（四）用人单位的规章制度违反法律、法规的规定，损害劳动者权益的；（五）因本法第二十六条第一款规定的情形致使劳动合同无效的；（六）法律、行政法规规定劳动者可以解除劳动合同的其他情形。
2012/03/13 Party A sent Party B an email that read:
Iain
i'd like to meet you tmr,17:00 pm , March 14th, in KFC , 2rd floor;
if u want to stop the trouble asap, pls get ready to pay money asap;
this time , should be more.
if u want to vedio me, pls let me know, so i will go there after make up;
Chris
Party B also regards, “if u want to stop the trouble asap, pls get ready to pay money asap;
this time , should be more.”, as potentially threatening language.

2012/03/14 Party B met with the Foreign Expert Certificate Manager and was encouraged to go to Party A’s School and come to a compromise. Upon entering the school, Party B was put into a quiet room out of sight and left to wait indefinitely.
Party B went with Alina Fang (Party B’s Girlfriend), Barbara (Girlfriend’s best friend) and her Mom because he was unable to translate his concerns fully.
Party A was still in possession of Party B’s Foreign Expert Certificate, and Chinese Law states that an employer must cancel a Foreign Expert Certificate within 30 days after Party B hands in a written notice of contract cancellation.
Tired of waiting, Party B went into the lobby of the school, and asked about finding a compromise. Party A informed Party B that we were to met outside of the school at the KFC at 17:00pm, and that they now demanded 6000 RMB extortion..
Party B informed Party A that he wanted to meet inside the school professionally, and informed Party A that they were breaking the Law.
At this point, Party B became unaware of what anyone was saying, and a large disagreement broke out amongst the Chinese speakers. Three police men were phoned, one by Party A, one by Alina Fang, and last by Barbara.
No arrests were made, and neither party were able to reach an agreement.
Party B returned to the Foreign Expert Certificate Bureau, and were told by Manager Guo that we should provide a list of grievances against Party A.
Chris & Party B met at the KFC at 17:00pm. Richard & Angel didn’t come. Party A refused to answer any of Party B’s questions including “why has the amount increased to 6000 RMB?”, and left the meeting.

2012/03/15 Party B went to the Foreign Expert Certificate Bureau and provided Manager Guo with a list of grievances against Party A.
Party A was called into the office, and Party B was told to wait outside.
After 40 minutes, Party B was asked back into the office and more officers came in to try to solve the situation. One young woman that Manager Guo said was an officer from the Labour Department, attempted to understand the contract. She could not speak or understand English well. Party B asked her some simple questions in English, and she was unable to reply.
Party B is sure she can’t understand the English Language Contract.
There is No Chinese Language Contract.
At the end of the meeting all of the officer’s said that if we went to court that we would lose.
Party B was not provided with a translator, and felt that he was not allowed to take part any of these discussions as an active participant.

2012/03/16 Party B was phoned by the Labour Dispute Arbitration and asked if he wished to pursue the matter in court against Party A.
The Labour Dispute Arbitration seemed unaware of what happened on 2012/03/15 at the Foreign Expert Certificate Bureau.


Party B Calculates the amount that Party A should have paid him for work done in January to be:
1200 RMB for January 2012 Housing Allowance
2028 RMB for 26 hours worked.
2000 RMB to Party B for the cost of the Z-Visa
1170 RMB for unpaid Salary for the Chinese National Holiday in January
Totaling: 6398
Party B Calculates the amount that Party A should have paid him for work done in February to be:
400 RMB for February 2012 Housing Allowance
2650 RMB for unpaid wages in February 2012
Totaling: 3050

Party A paid Party B only 3000 in January and Party B has received nothing for February.

Party A owes Party B a total of 6448 RMB and potential damages because he has been unable to legally work.
Party B also feels that he has been unable to support his life due to the lack of necessary financing and unethical treatment.



Soooo... after thoughts are... don't trust a school which prefers to have meetings in a fast food restaurants... the Canadian embassy was not helpful or useful... although there is a file somewhere explaining all of this... and although the Chinese government officers didn't really do anything, they didn't do anything against me either.

The Owner of this school, Richard Ma, Ma Jun (Chinese Name), is also a Canadian Citizen. He lives mostly in China, but he has a home in Toronto near the Yorkdale Mall. I gathered that his wife lived there while year round, but he was in China most of the time.

In an unrelated conversation, he has made comments directly to me about
how he could have used the police to beat another foreigner. However, this foreigner was already injured in a motorbike accident, so he was a bit disappointed because he didn't know how to get his money back... can't break what's already broken I suppose...

He and his school are very well known in the media, albeit you need to read Chinese to understand these weblinks... some of them are funny:
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/394310685.html
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/190647764.html
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/61655932.html
http://news.163.com/08/0611/22/4E6KSA8G00011229.html
http://comment.news.163.com/news_shehui6_bbs/4E6KSA8G00011229.html
http://bbs.icnkr.com/thread-193761-1-1.html
http://www.chinanews.com/sh/news/2008/06-13/1280606.shtml

On 2012/03/22 I met with a lawyer.
I was phoned by Zhonghao school, and the lawyer and Richard talked about
the situation. The lawyer put the conversation on speaker-phone and during this conversation Richard:

Made racist remarks towards foreigner's, and expressed that they should
be "taught to become more responsible". Expressed his interest in resolving the matter, but was unwilling to find a compromise without first receiving an written and signed admission of guilt (which would be a false and possibly incriminating statement).

Showed a willingness to meet with the lawyer, but felt it was to educate the lawyer on his behalf. Was not willing to admit to any fault or wrongdoing.
Spoke of gangs, and said that he thought this issue shouldn't need to go
any further.

So yah... be careful when you take a job overseas, mostly awesome schools, but sometimes this can happen....

[OhBudPowellWhereArtThou]

Why have you brought up this very old thread?


So where IS this blacklist? All I've ever seen is a memo with a few names on it.

[3701 W.119th]

For 6,500RMB owed, I can't say I'd have went to any of this trouble or stress. Life's too short for such drama over a relatively paltry sum of money. £650!

What value do you place the time and effort taken to stubbornly go through this whole process, rather than just cut your losses early on?

I guess if you come here content to live from pay-cheque to pay-cheque, with nothing behind you - and are a little naive when the early warning signs were pretty evident - then things can easily turn sour.

Neither side covered themselves in glory here. A sorry story. I'm glad this kind of thing seems to be the overwhelming exception among FTs in China.

[iainjgfletcher]

Oh... you misunderstand 3701 W.119th

Paying the $650 wasn't going to get me my release papers so I could get another visa or stay in China.

They said "pay us this, then you leave China... maybe in a couple years you can come back"

They made that very clear.

They just wanted me to pay because they're idiots

[SH_Panda]

[OhBudPowellWhereArtThou]

[adventious]

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