View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
jonniboy
Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 751 Location: Panama City, Panama
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Brexit begins |
|
|
Hod wrote: |
In an English Home Counties pub this weekend, I overheard a woman of voting age discussing the upcoming referendum. She recalled a time she went to a café in Paris only for the waiter to apologise as he didn’t speak English. “Yes, you effing well do”, was her reply. I got the impression this one event would help make her a “No” voter. |
There was a time when I´d have voted exit, but the story above illustrates the problem. A lot of the people that want to leave are a ragtag bunch of nutters and extremists with random gripes that they blame on the EU and an irrational fear of foreigners. They cling to variants of the lump of labour theory. (A million unemployed, kick out a million foreigners, all will be hunk dory. Nope.)
Recently, I saw stories about fears of the mosquito-borne Zika virus entering the UK and that lot were out in force calling for the border to the EU to be closed. Quite how that stops mosquitoes from the Carribbean entering is anyone´s guess, but that seems to be their kneejerk response to everything.
In terms of exit, unless the UK negotiated a Norway style deal, which would mean them still contributing the EU budget anyway, the EU would most likely respond to any Brexit by making an example of the UK to discourage other countries doing the same. Expect less favourable trade conditions and so on in response to any curtailing of free movement. A lot of economic decisions which affect the UK would still be made in Brussels anyway. The only diff is that the UK wouldn´t be there at the table to discuss them. Quite a lot of businesses currently in the UK would probably do their own "Brexit." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sheikh radlinrol
Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Posts: 1222 Location: Spain
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
jonniboy,
If you allow the anecdote of the Home Counties lady´s disdain for the the French to influence your views then that is your problem. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Hod
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 1613 Location: Home
|
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sheikh radlinrol wrote: |
jonniboy,
If you allow the anecdote of the Home Counties lady´s disdain for the the French to influence your views then that is your problem. |
Phenomenal.
Ordinarily, a person who bases their opinion of an entire nation on one waiter in a cafe would be seen as narrow minded and pig ignorant. But for this referendum, their vote counts just as much as us educated folks, right sheikh radlinrol? Maybe that's what's influenced jonniboy and not that daft woman? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Anecdotes, like analogies, can't prove anything by themselves; they only illustrate, However, when a anecdote is deliberately used by a writer as an illustration of what the writer sees to be representative of a widespread mind-set, as this does:
"A lot of the people that want to leave are a ragtag bunch of nutters and extremists with random gripes that they blame on the EU and an irrational fear of foreigners."
then the discerning reader should realize that the anecdote is not merely an isolated example but has been linked to a more general attitude.
Regards,
John |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008 Posts: 3154
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
johnslat wrote: |
Anecdotes, like analogies, can't prove anything by themselves; they only illustrate, However, when a anecdote is deliberately used by a writer as an illustration of what the writer sees to be representative of a widespread mind-set, as this does:
"A lot of the people that want to leave are a ragtag bunch of nutters and extremists with random gripes that they blame on the EU and an irrational fear of foreigners."
then the discerning reader should realize that the anecdote is not merely an isolated example but has been linked to a more general attitude.
|
Would that not apply to the statement, "A lot of the people that want to leave are not a ragtag bunch of nutters and extremists with random gripes that they blame on the EU and an irrational fear of foreigners."
What is a lot of people? What is a nutter or extremist? What are the random gripes? This turns out to be a very non-specific statement from Jonniboy. A lot of people supporting a decision meet his disapproval so he flip-flops on it.
It is a poor generalization. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 13859 Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think you've misread the post. His opinion that a lot of people who are supporting the leaving are " a ragtag bunch of nutters and extremists with random gripes that they blame on the EU and an irrational fear of foreigners."
is not, I think, the REASON he is against it.
But he does mention his reasons: "In terms of exit, unless the UK negotiated a Norway style deal, which would mean them still contributing the EU budget anyway, the EU would most likely respond to any Brexit by making an example of the UK to discourage other countries doing the same. Expect less favourable trade conditions and so on in response to any curtailing of free movement. A lot of economic decisions which affect the UK would still be made in Brussels anyway. The only diff is that the UK wouldn´t be there at the table to discuss them. Quite a lot of businesses currently in the UK would probably do their own "Brexit."
You're right that it's a generalization, not to mention ad hominem, but it's not, as you stated:
"A lot of people supporting a decision meet his disapproval so he flip-flops on it."
WHY he "flip-flopped" (which is a negative way of saying that he's changed his mind.)
Regards,
John |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Knedliki
Joined: 08 May 2015 Posts: 160
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
While everyone is getting whipped up about this referendum it shouldn't be used as a smokescreen by the government so they can introduce some awful policies under the radar.
Never trust a tory. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2041 Location: A World of my Own
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: |
Never trust a tory |
Oh dear, just when I was enjoying intelligent debate, out comes the Guardian/Mirror reader.
I'm a Tory, and I'm extremely trustworthy. Care to step outside to discuss it? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Hod
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 1613 Location: Home
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Knedliki
Joined: 08 May 2015 Posts: 160
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Phil_K wrote: |
Quote: |
Never trust a tory |
Oh dear, just when I was enjoying intelligent debate, out comes the Guardian/Mirror reader.
I'm a Tory, and I'm extremely trustworthy. Care to step outside to discuss it? |
Not really, I'm not 14 year old.
The tory record is there for anyone with a conscience to draw their own conclusions from |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 2041 Location: A World of my Own
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But without specific examples, the argument is worth nothing. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Knedliki
Joined: 08 May 2015 Posts: 160
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Record levels of homeless people, this week charities such as shelter said around 40% of homeless are mentally ill.
Highest ever suicide rate.
Teachers leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.
Junior doctors forced into striking for the first time ever.
More food banks than ever before.
There's a few points for you.This is Tory Britain, but on the plus side, with all these public sector cuts we will build up a surplus, so we'll be able to bail out the banks again in the future if we need to. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Posts: 372 Location: 999
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hod, still undecided?
Are you IN or OUT?
I guess the outers, like scotty, are those with age over 65, they still living in the past!
The history of the Scots vote for independence will repeat itself in the EU referendum, just watch the political space of the EU.
The UK is stronger within the EU than outside. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Hod
Joined: 28 Apr 2003 Posts: 1613 Location: Home
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know yet.
I heard a good point yesterday. If the UK leaves, we can always go back to the EU cap in hand. Would they really say no? I doubt it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015 Posts: 372 Location: 999
|
Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Knedliki wrote: |
Highest ever suicide rate. |
Why? What is the cause?
Life without spiritual faith?
Do you think the suicide rate will diminish if the UK is outside the EU?
I doubt it.
Quote: |
Teachers leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers. |
Why? Salary is not good? Teaching hours too long? Ofsted 'police' regime?
Do you think these problems will be solved if the UK is outside the EU?
I doubt it.
Quote: |
Junior doctors forced into striking for the first time ever. |
Replace them with Eastern European doctors with half salary! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|