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South African experience in China?
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Non Sequitur

Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:30 am Post subject:

happeningthang wrote:

Being a Saffa is generally a less desirable nationality for an English teacher in China, but seems to me the job market is undergoing a sustained constriction and there is more demand for teachers than before.

Seth Afreeker is recognised by immigration as an English speaking nation ~ so you qualify for the z visa ~ and that's all that matters.

You can be legally employed and in this market you will get a job without a doubt.

Taiwan (particularly Taipei) has a huge Saffa expat community established well and truly by the white flight that saw them invade Australia, New Zealand and the ESL nations. Plenty of them in Korea too.

All the white ones I've meet are very nice (with one notable exception) but super subtly racist. And let's face it Apartheid still hangs around their necks like a Soweto necklace. It's hard to forget that sheet and deal with them everyday.

They don't leave SA because they love their new Rainbow Nation.
In NZ I had a flat managed by a SA property manager.
She openly said to me 'You wouldn't want an Indian as a tenant - would you?'
They circle the wagons in places like Auckland's North Shore, chew billtong and dream of the days when the Bantus knew their place.

platinum peyote

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Posts: 149
Location: Nanjing, near the bus stop

Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:05 am Post subject:

On the one hand, racism is clearly wrong. On the other hand, if you haven't lived in South Africa you're not really in much of a position to criticize people's attitudes there. Always surprising listening to the Africa "experts" who have never set foot in an African country because, you know, race relations and cultural issues are exactly the same in every single country apparently.

Non Sequitur

Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China

Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:47 am Post subject:

platinum peyote wrote:

On the one hand, racism is clearly wrong. On the other hand, if you haven't lived in South Africa you're not really in much of a position to criticize people's attitudes there. Always surprising listening to the Africa "experts" who have never set foot in an African country because, you know, race relations and cultural issues are exactly the same in every single country apparently.

I didn't touch on the situation in SA. My points are that (a) the racists are the first to leave SA and (b) the migrants happily take their racism to their new homes.

Markness

Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 738
Location: Chengdu

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:02 am Post subject:

happeningthang wrote:

They've got their reasons to be racist. They literally have the screws put to them in the old country for being white. The ones who I met who were British-South Africans tend to not be that way, but that is usually because most of them were well-off and away from the nonsense that the other white folk had to deal with. The white South Africans I know had a thing against the blacks because of the following reasons:
1) Some were farmers and their land would get pillaged/looted, they had to keep guns.
2) They had all been robbed at gunpoint.
3) They apply for jobs there that don't even pay that well and say on the application it asks for blacks as a preference, even though black folk make up a majority of the population.
4) When working with the people who got their jobs because of their colour, they claimed their work-ethic was generally terrible all the time, and had to pick up the slack for them all the time. They always felt like their job was on the line, whereas the blacks did not have to deal with that.
5) Hostile behavior they encountered on a regular basis from them.

Anywho, that is just what they have told me, and I am sure if you are a S.A. you would know how that feels too.. right? Everyone would not be racist at all if they had to deal with that kind of stuff.. right ? The stuff they told me from back at home would have made me get out of the country too if I was them. It is a whole different world in South Africa, such a shame because it is such a beautiful looking country.

happeningthang

Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 117

Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject:

Violence breeds violence. After Apartheid and colonialism destroys the lives of generations ~ of the vast majority ~ NOW you're going to cry 'not fair'? This is what I mean about subtle racism of some Saffas. They are full of complaints about how hard THEY have it ~ barely any consideration for the rest of the populace and how they might be faring.

theoriginalprankster

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 895

Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:28 am Post subject:

Quote:

They circle the wagons in places like Auckland's North Shore, chew billtong and dream of the days when the Bantus knew their place.

Prime example of asxholeness.

RiverMystic

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:26 am Post subject:

happeningthang wrote:

Violence breeds violence.

After Apartheid and colonialism destroys the lives of generations ~ of the vast majority ~ NOW you're going to cry 'not fair'?

This is what I mean about subtle racism of some Saffas. They are full of complaints about how hard THEY have it ~ barely any consideration for the rest of the populace and how they might be faring.

Slightly off topic, but such a perspective is of little use to those facing the problems in this generation. It's like the five police officers shot dead in Dallas. Try explaining to their kids why daddy was shot dead the day after a "Chinese" police officer shot a black guy somewhere else. (He may have been Asian-Latino, but was described as Chinese by the dead guy's g/f). Why did the newspapers like NYT have pages and pages of stuff about white racism after someone of a completely different ethnic background did something "wrong." It's because we have had a couple of generations of identity politics whereby there is only one group we can find fault with, regardless of who is responsible for any given problem. In fact the only people we can definitely say we're deliberately murdered because of their skin colour were the White cops.

People get frustrated. Simply calling people "racist" for criticising such developments emerges from that same system. It fails completely to examine what is happening on the ground and in daily life for such people. It is just a form of public shaming, one that shuts down all intelligent discussion. There are problems in such systems that go way beyond "racists vs innocents." Sadly the only prermissable public discourse remains just this.

wangdaning

Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:06 am Post subject:

I am with you here river. I have a few notes about current US policy that I would throw in, but I do not want to divert too much of the OP's meaning for this thread.

theoriginalprankster

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 895

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:09 am Post subject:

Quote:

This is what I mean about subtle racism of some Saffas. They are full of complaints about how hard THEY have it ~ barely any consideration for the rest of the populace and how they might be faring.

Rubbish.

Calling South Africans 'Saffas' is subtle racism though. I don't call Canadians 'Canucks' and Americans 'Yanks' and Chinese 'Chinks'.

Oh, and having observed plenty of native speakers (Americans, Canadians, British) over the years I'm comfortable saying I am a better teacher than 99.9% of them.

You muppet.

happeningthang

Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject:

RiverMystic wrote:

happeningthang wrote:

Slightly off topic, but such a perspective is of little use to those facing the problems in this generation.

I can't agree with this. How are you going to be anything other than reactionary if all you do is respond to the symptom and don't have enough context to even recognise the underlying disease? Bit of a tortured metaphor, but I think I got there.

RiverMystic wrote:

It's like the five police officers shot dead in Dallas. Try explaining to their kids why daddy was shot dead the day after a "Chinese" police officer shot a black guy somewhere else. (He may have been Asian-Latino, but was described as Chinese by the dead guy's g/f). Why did the newspapers like NYT have pages and pages of stuff about white racism after someone of a completely different ethnic background did something "wrong." It's because we have had a couple of generations of identity politics whereby there is only one group we can find fault with, regardless of who is responsible for any given problem. In fact the only people we can definitely say we're deliberately murdered because of their skin colour were the White cops.

Well is this really the same thing? Apartheid was explicitly about race. I think you're reaching a bit to make the 'Chinese' cop's race a meaningful factor. Yes, the Dallas shooter was apparently motivated to kill whites, but it is pretty straightforward....cops killed black people - he killed cops. I don't have any details, but I doubt once the shooting started he was being selective based on race. I'd assume anyone in uniform and shooting at him would be a target.

I don't know what you're referring to about the NYT- but I find it hard to believe they specifically point out "white racism" exclusively. Are you sure you don't mean incidences
of police related deaths? And I think the whole point of Black Lives Matter is that people of colour are more likely to be killed 'because of their skin colour'.

RiverMystic wrote:

People get frustrated. Simply calling people "racist" for criticising such developments emerges from that same system. It fails completely to examine what is happening on the ground and in daily life for such people. It is just a form of public shaming, one that shuts down all intelligent discussion. There are problems in such systems that go way beyond "racists vs innocents." Sadly the only prermissable public discourse remains just this.

True enough - people are frustrated, but my point is perhaps when all is considered it would be helpful if they had enough empathy and awareness to understand it's not ALL about them. They are not the sole focus of what is happening - it's everyone else as well.

But people are people and inherently self interested. If you're unemployed it will suck, and cold comfort that others are being helped by affirmative action. 'What about me' is the cry. But when this somehow coalesces into a view against a certain race to the exclusion of all others - then that is racism - and that omits nuance and 'what is happening in daily life' too. Alerting people to that is public shaming - they should be ashamed. It's a special kind of selfishness and disavowal of personal responsibility to blame another ethnic group in defiance of reality. They need to know that.

happeningthang

Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 117

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:48 pm Post subject:

theoriginalprankster wrote:

Quote:

This is what I mean about subtle racism of some Saffas. They are full of complaints about how hard THEY have it ~ barely any consideration for the rest of the populace and how they might be faring.

Are you REALLY upset by the use of Saffa? REALLY? Seems a bit contrived.

I don't see the problem.

1.It's hardly anything to do with race. Black South Africans are still Saffas.
2. It's the same as calling Australians - Aussies, New Zealanders - Kiwis
3.I don't think calling Canadians -Canucks or Americans -Yanks (unless a southerner who's still waiting for the Confederacy to rise again) is an issue to anyone and certainly not 'racist'. I doubt anyone really cares.
4. The reason no-one would care is because these names are used as nicknames and are used neutrally. Not so 'Chink', which has a history as a racial epithet and is used to derogate.

That's what makes a term racist. Obviously.

And I don't think anyone said being South African made you a bad teacher. Just that they are generally less desirable to employers.

In China parents are looking to send their kids abroad to study. The study destinations are what determine the hierarchy. No-one wants to send their children to South Africa.

RiverMystic

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:57 am Post subject:

happeningthang wrote:

RiverMystic wrote:

happeningthang wrote:

Slightly off topic, but such a perspective is of little use to those facing the problems in this generation.

RiverMystic wrote:

I'm too lazy to go through and edit the bits I am referring to.

1. Yes, the shooter targeted white police officers. This is what the police announced after the shooting.
2. Yes, there were four articles with the word "white" in the headline within a few hours of the initial shooting by the "Chinese" officer." One in particular strongly stereotyped white people as all racist. "Whiteness is blindness," it said. "You whites blame all Muslims after attacks by extremists..." And on and on it went like this. I note it has now been edited to remove the most offensive bits, but it is still bad. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/what-white-america-fails-to-see.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

There has been a definitive lack of logic in identifying the obvious correlation between violent crime rates, race and police shootings. Identifying this correlation is not racism. It is merely the most likely explanation for the fact that more blacks get shot per capita than other races. Around 60% of violent crime in NY and Chicago is committed by blacks, 5% or so by whites. Almost all these police shootings occur in low economic, inner city urban areas where gun carrying is almost universal. The latter is just as true for the 75% of police shooting victims who are not black. There just happen to be more areas that are black-dominant This is the context. The media discourse creates the illusion that police go out and shoot innocent people because they are black. This is not only nonsense, it exacerbates the entire social fracturing. But media are typically too scared to contextualise these events. The price for doing so is too great. So instead of informed, data-driven analysis, what you get is a whole heap of emotive description which focuses on why white people are racist. I don't consider this to be very helpful in resolving the problem.

Over and out from me on this topic.

asiannationmc

Joined: 13 Aug 2014
Posts: 1342

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:34 am Post subject:

Quote:

There has been a definitive lack of logic in identifying the obvious correlation between violent crime rates, race and police shootings. Identifying this correlation is not racism.

unless that correlation is in the head of someone who is trying to justify a racial bias and this is in no way aimed at those who feel that there is a correlation cause .... just recent research release not long ago

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854#sec005

cause' if you consider a 2015 study (University of California at Davis); it indicates “no relationship” between crime rates by race and racial bias in police killings.

platinum peyote

Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Posts: 149
Location: Nanjing, near the bus stop

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:23 am Post subject:

happeningthang wrote:

Are you REALLY upset by the use of Saffa? REALLY? Seems a bit contrived.

I don't see the problem.

Of course you don't, because you are clueless about South Africa. Here's a hint: It rhymes with a certain 'k' word.

Quote:

No-one wants to send their children to South Africa.

And why do you think that is? Perhaps you could tell us why "no-one[sic] wants to send their children to South Africa." I am sure it has nothing to do with black people, or the crime committed by black people, so what is it?

RiverMystic

Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 1986

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:30 pm Post subject:

asiannationmc wrote:

Quote:

There has been a definitive lack of logic in identifying the obvious correlation between violent crime rates, race and police shootings. Identifying this correlation is not racism.

There's plenty of reasons to question these findings, and links galore. But this is not the place. One does wonder why the fact that in the US twenty times as many blacks murder whites as the other way round is ignored by BLM, and the media. Guess them white lives just don't matter.

EDIT

Just read the article. It says quite clearly that although blacks are more likely to get killed by police per capita, the study is limited in scope and simply does not have the data to compare death rates per race vs numbers of encounters of police and the various races. It has NOTHING to say about violent crime rates and race as related to this subject matter.

Quote:

It is important to reiterate that these risk ratios come only from the sample of individuals who were shot by police and census data on race/ethnicity-specific population information. The USPSD does not have information on encounter rates between police and subjects according to ethnicity. As such, the data cannot speak to the relative risk of being shot by a police officer conditional on being encountered by police, and do not give us a direct window into the psychology of the officers who are pulling the triggers. The racial biases and behaviors of officers upon encountering a suspect could clearly be components of the relative risk effects observed in the data, but other social factors could also contribute to the observed patterns in the data. More specifically, heterogeneity in encounter rates between suspects and police as a function of race could play a strong role in the racial biases in shooting rates presented here.

Last edited by RiverMystic on Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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