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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:05 am Post subject: |
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So a guy flipping burgers on the minimum wage contaminates the food with whatever and that's OK?
What ever happened to personal standards? |
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rioux
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 880
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
So a guy flipping burgers on the minimum wage contaminates the food with whatever and that's OK?
What ever happened to personal standards? |
Not okay. That would put the lives of others in danger.
He shows up does the basics, tries to be cool (most of the time anyway). Pretty much no problems. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Well that's reassuring. Balances up the low pay/no care viewpoint of some.
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rioux
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 880
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:29 am Post subject: |
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I follow the lead of management.
They don't care much so I don't either.
By the way your example was atrocious. Okay, I'll go to class and give it my all because I don't want to be compared with anyone that poisons food. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
FWIW, I have got a job at an international school starting next year. And I'm getting paid many multiples of 6000rmb a month! That school will receive my full commitment- because they've paid properly for it. |
Dude, I don't believe you. Someone who aspires to that level of education and teaching doesn't have your attitude.
Enjoy your 4,500rmb per month and be happy with it. |
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Timer
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Posts: 173
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:25 am Post subject: |
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My averages have been pretty low in the past, around 70ish because most students are so damn lazy and don't care about anything other than finishing university. They don't need to do much for me; come to class and try their best. Most only manage the first one, rarely do they do the second as well.
As for students complaining about grades, it's because they don't take foreign teacher classes seriously. It's just another obstacle in their path to their degree. They know foreign teachers have little to no power and as such they don't really respect us. They are often fed the idea that foreigners are dumber than Chinese and less powerful and other fanciful tales which adds to this. They may tell you their English is poor (which is a form of false modesty the Chinese love to practise) but they still expect 100 for everything.
My current school actually tells the teachers the average has to be 85 regardless of what happens. Might as well just give them their degree and stop wasting everyone's time with 'classes'.
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| My observation in public universities is that most FTs ... playing guitar in class or teaching the class obscenities and insults. |
In my 6 years teaching in 6 different universities (different levels too; from top tier to no-name shit) I have never heard of any teacher doing this kind of thing. Teaching obscenities and insults would make its way to the people in charge pretty quickly...
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
...hand out A's to keep everyone happy.
...they earn a C.
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In all these universities the score has always been a number out of 100. I've never seen nor heard of anyone giving out ABCs. That seems more like a Western thing than a Chinese thing.
| ghost wrote: |
| First off - I always have to remind myself, that speaking English, for a Chinese person, is no small feat... |
You also need to remind yourself that most Chinese university students have been 'studying' English for at least 10 years. Setting your expectations low simply because they are Chinese doesn't really help anyone.
| Alien abductee wrote: |
| No, there isn't. But there's something called "work ethic" and taking a bit of pride in what you do. Apparently these notions haven't been imparted to everyone. |
How long have you been in China? You haven't realised that "work ethic" and pride in one's work is almost non-existent here? Why bother having such a high level of this yourself when no one is going to notice it? You think your students care? Most aren't even paying attention to what you do. Same with the school.
I'm not saying you should rock up late to class drunk and spend the time talking about your sexual conquests. But should you really be putting in maximum effort for little to no return?
It seems many people haven't realised that this job, like the education system itself, is a joke. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| twowheel wrote: |
Whatever the rationale for not putting a small bit of effort into the job may be, at the end of the day, the students are the real losers in such a situation.
twowheel |
Not my problem - I'm not a charity.
| Alien abductee wrote: |
| I don't know any ESLers who are on "minimum wage." From what I've seen the lowest paying jobs only ask 12 or 14 hours a week and pay anywhere from 6,000-9,000yuan a month. These teachers don't pay rent or have commuting costs. The net pay is way above minimum wage, anywhere. The main point: it doesn’t matter what the worker is being paid. Employers have an expectation of how the worker is going to perform, and every right to coach the worker to complete tasks properly. Or terminate the worker if the worker won’t comply. “Deontological ethics” are practices you have a duty to perform. If a worker agrees to a wage, minimum or otherwise, then they're expected to put out the best effort when clocked in and collecting money. If the money isn’t right, don’t take the job. “Minimum effort for minimum wage” is the attitude of a loser. |
Clearly deduction from written text isn't your strong point. Change 'minimum' to 'low' if it makes you feel better, the point remains the same.
The bolded part you've just made up. There's no such obligation. Yes, our prospective teacher could not take the job, and indeed that would be the usual course of action, but sometimes life dictates that one must take a crap paying job because of circumstances beyond your control.
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| Could you really look at a class of freshers and think 'I ain't being paid enough to make an effort?' |
Course I could.
| rioux wrote: |
| Then management ought to hire teachers who are certified and/or with MA's. They won't do that because they want to play it on the cheap. Throw in not having "conversation" classes composed of 50 or more people. Many times management also does this because they don't have to pay for another teacher (or two). |
Amen.
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| Dude, I don't believe you. Someone who aspires to that level of education and teaching doesn't have your attitude. |
Looks like you've learned today that not everyone gets into education for the love of it. Nor do they do higher level qualifications simply to grow as a professional.
I got into education because it's one of the few jobs foreigners can do in Asia with little to no barriers to entry. I went back home to get higher level qualifications because they'll earn me more money. That's it. None of this rubbish about how seeing students progress brightens my day up or whatever kool-aid some of you like to drink.
You're consistently bitter about people who want to earn a large amount of cash though, so I suspect my words are wasted on you. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| You're consistently bitter about people who want to earn a bit more cash though, so I suspect my words are wasted on you. |
Fixed it for you  It's unlikely you'll be earning 'large amounts of cash' in China, even 30K RMB / month only equates to a middle-class income back home. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| joe30 wrote: |
FWIW, I have got a job at an international school starting next year. And I'm getting paid many multiples of 6000rmb a month! That school will receive my full commitment- because they've paid properly for it. |
Dude, I don't believe you. Someone who aspires to that level of education and teaching doesn't have your attitude.
Enjoy your 4,500rmb per month and be happy with it. |
+1
On the grades side of this discussion my experience is that schools require percentages. How in an Oral English class you can decide who gets a 70 and who gets say 72 is beyond me but i try. A B C would be better for Oral but there you are.
No-one gets below 60 in my classes but we all know that getting a 60 just means you completed the course and turned up for assessment.
For 70 and above I really dig deep to make sure the grades are accurate and defendable.
As for joe30 it's hard to believe that someone would return home and upskill to that extent, only to come back to China - a country which he has no time for.
Why not get a job at home, or is the system there even lousier than China? The internationals I'm aware of expect at least a year of home country teaching post registration. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
| joe30 wrote: |
| You're consistently bitter about people who want to earn a bit more cash though, so I suspect my words are wasted on you. |
Fixed it for you It's unlikely you'll be earning 'large amounts of cash' in China, even 30K RMB / month only equates to a middle-class income back home. |
Tbf it is a large amount in China. Certainly when compared to average FT earnings. Plus there's a payscale i'll be rising through as experience is gained with real salary increments, not the BS 500RMB raise an FT might get.
Bud seems to subscribe to the do-gooder notion that 'no one should be teaching for the money' and/or that teachers should be poor. To that, and all those who share his notion I say this - speak for yourselves!
I probably won't stay in China forever either. It's just an ideal place to get international school experience as - and I'm sure this will piss off the academic types here - the standards are lower, so an NQT can get a foot in the door. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: |
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"In my 6 years teaching in 6 different universities (different levels too; from top tier to no-name shit) I have never heard of any teacher doing this kind of thing. Teaching obscenities and insults would make its way to the people in charge pretty quickly..."
OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote:
...hand out A's to keep everyone happy.
...they earn a C.
In all these universities the score has always been a number out of 100. I've never seen nor heard of anyone giving out ABCs. That seems more like a Western thing than a Chinese thing.
Wow. Can you say anal? I think in terms of letter grades, and I think that most Americans do as well. That's not what goes into the book. AS YOU SHOULD KNOW, even if one grades with a rubric during the two-minute performances, it is extremely difficult to assign a number grade on-the-spot. I could inform you about conversion of alphabetical grades over time and converting them to a numerical grade, but you already know that.
Never heard of an FT going to a university class with a guitar? Never heard of teachers basing their entire class upon song? Welcome to China.
And yes, there are teachers who teach obscenities and insults in class. And yes, administrators hear about these things pretty fast. That doesn't mean that the teachers are fired. I see your join date which (I suppose) verifies your arrival date in China and experience. I see your number of posts. You're not a regular in the forum, so you wouldn't see some teachers posts admitting to doing such things. Other things are relevant to this subtopic, but it violates forum rules to discuss them.
But you already know about them. Hmmm... Maybe not.
Have a blessed day today. Thanks for the feedback. No need for a response.
Last edited by OhBudPowellWhereArtThou on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| joe30 wrote: |
| How much work do you expect for 6000rmb a month, lol. If you pay bottom of the barrel, that's the sort of teacher you'll attract - which is perfectly fair and reasonable. |
Then don't take the job. Go get a higher paying job at an international school.
Can't compete against all of those MSc's and MA's?
Then go to EF. What? Can't qualify for that either? Ooooh. Something is wrong. Must be the pay. Uh huh. uh huh.
Joe30, you don't get it, and you might want to reconsider your motives for coming to China. A little introspection might do you a lot of good. |
Or take the job but put little effort in. There's no law that says you always need to try your hardest at work. I for one only put effort in when I feel I'm been renumerated appropriately. Dont expect me to put in long hours doing planning and marking when the pay is crap.
FWIW, I have got a job at an international school starting next year. And I'm getting paid many multiples of 6000rmb a month! That school will receive my full commitment- because they've paid properly for it. |
No, there is no such law. I guess that it comes down to how much pride one takes in his work. I don't agree with you, but then, I don't work where you work or have worked, and I can easily manage on my pay. I can save too. Being financially responsible saves one a lot of headaches (including the ones that one might acquire from too much beer and baijiu every night). |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Wanting a budget greater than 6000rmb a month does not equate to being financially irresponsible.
It's clear you're in the camp that believes teachers should take vows of poverty and chastity though. Just realise - you speak for yourself and no one else. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
Bud seems to subscribe to the do-gooder notion that 'no one should be teaching for the money' and/or that teachers should be poor. To that, and all those who share his notion I say this - speak for yourselves!
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No, I subscribe to the belief that one should do the job that one is paid to do.
Okay. I get your point. You're an NQT, a non-qualified teacher.
On the street, that's the same thing as a scam artist, no? |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| joe30 wrote: |
Bud seems to subscribe to the do-gooder notion that 'no one should be teaching for the money' and/or that teachers should be poor. To that, and all those who share his notion I say this - speak for yourselves!
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No, I subscribe to the belief that one should do the job that one is paid to do.
Okay. I get your point. You're an NQT, a non-qualified teacher.
On the street, that's the same thing as a scam artist, no? |
No, that's not what the acronym stands for, although I'm not sure whether you're just trolling at this point. It stands for Newly Qualified Teacher, which is the status of a teacher after they have finished a PGCE course in the UK.
Only put in effort appropriate to the pay. If you do differently you're a sucker. |
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