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Cleopatra · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:01 am Post subject:

Seth wrote:

"American or British soldiers may have fired on youths, but can you really blame a person who is under more stress than we can imagine, who was tossed into this bogus war by powers beyond their control? "

but these people chose to join the army - they are not conscripts! In doing so, they chose to unconditionally follow orders from their "superiors".

And if having kids throw stones at you is unbearably stressful for these guys, then perhaps their armies should consider reviewing their training practices. They're in an army after all, not a softball team. They are paid to be in situations far more "stressful" than a bunch of kids throwing stones at them.

Zaneth wrote:

"I can't say that I wouldn't be afraid of a large mob of kids with stones. Easy to laugh, but really, who of you'd really feel like shrugging off a mob of stone throwing youths. Stones hurt. Kids can throw, sometimes very accurately. And I'm betting the kids outnumber the soldiers. Don't civilians always outnumber and generally surround occupying armies? "

So far as I know, no member of the occupation forces inany Middle Eastern country has been seriously injured, let alone killed, by stone throwing youths. and numbers arenot really the issue here - one soldier armed with a powerful gun is more dangerous than any number of kids with stones. Statistics bear this out - as I say, there are plenty of reports of civilisans being killed by soldiers, but few, if any of soldiers being killed by stones. In any case, have the British and American armies (and thier proxies) never heard of plastic bullets?

Seth · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 575 Location: in exile

i agree that plastic/rubber/hot pepper would be preferential to use on 'teenagers with stones.' but you have no idea what it's like to be surrounded by people who are hostile to you. i've lived in haiti, it's tiring to constantly look behind your back for people who want to kill you.

however, still, giving 18 and 19 year old kids automatic rifles to deal with a truly frightening situation is more than any person could ask to deal with. the iraq war is barely a year old, most of the people fighting didn't join the military to fight. they hoped for a free ride through college and now they're forced into a dead-end struggle with iraqi nationalists.

all i'm saying is that they should be supported like the college students they hope to be. bush is the one to blame, for starting this war, not the soldiers. i say this as a small town indiana guy, as most soldiers are midwestern.

cimarch · Joined: 12 Jun 2003 Posts: 358 Location: Dalian

Ummmmm, any news about those airliners? Or has everyone forgotten about them?

Cleopatra · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:33 pm Post subject:

Seth,

While I totally agree with you that this is Bush's war and that the blame for it is primarily his (and to a lesser extent that of his minions, such as Blair and Howard), I don't think you can entirely let soldiers off the hook. While I appreciate that many of them signed up just so as to get their college fees paid, they did so knowing that the possibility existed for them to be sent to a war zone (that being what armies do) and would then have to deal with hostile people, perhaps armed with much more lethal weapons than stones.

I'm not unsympatetic to the soldiers concerned, but to be honest my sympathy is with their innocent victims rather more (not saying that all their victims are entirely innocent, of course). They did not, after all, have any choice in the matter. The soldiers did.

Ludwig · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:16 pm Post subject:

So, now traces of explosives are said to have been detected among the wreckage of the second aircraft:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3607886.stm

Chilling stuff.

extoere · Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 543

Thus: "Homer Gets His Rocks With Lisa."

cheers,
extoere

extoere · Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 543

Cleopatra: Who's innocent? The little wretches ate meat, didn't they? Any idea how many baby calves were slaughtered to provide the little munchkins with hot lunches? Some of them wore polka dot dresses, didn't they? Any idea how many baby polka dots were clubbed to death for the sake of their unbridled vanity?

Plenty of guilt to go around, kid! How 'bout YOU! Here you are wasting your time in utter idleness on Dave's ---- while you COULD be out, like Deborann, lecturing the earth's downtrodden, ministering to their needy psyches!

But then, it is true, I suppose: Life Is Best Viewed From The Interior Of A Rolled Carpet.

cheers,
extoere
Whaaaaaat? You ARE Deborann?

Ludwig · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:34 pm Post subject:

extoere · Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 543

Ludwig In Wonderland: How does one say, "..I am not for a moment suggesting ...," followed by, " ..but I would nevertheless insist .." ??????

Again: "..'the brave British boy' may have been a tad over ..'"
A 'tad,' Ludwig? A tad?

And once again: " ..the average Londoner .. take too kindly to Iraq troops being placed at train stations ..'

Were your tubes being used as torture dungeons? Your platforms used to lob poison gas at your own ethnic minorities? Your Prime Minister looting money given in oil for food programs, resulting in infant starvation? Have the demonstrated intentions of your own government shown the world you're interested in nothing but a fanatical accumulation of power and bloodlust by a single military dictator? (well, lately, at least!)

And last: "We should be paying reparations to Iraq and her people, not plundering and robbing them."

Comfortable niche you have there in Kai Sung, eh Ludwig? Fine vantage point from which one can intone one's Oh-So-Noble-Sensibilities.

You chew on strange things, Ludwig.

cheers,
extoere

Deborann · Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:33 pm Post subject:

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

This thread is too weird. I mentioned the explosives YESTERDAY and everyone went blithely babbling on about rock-throwing kids--giving yet another meaning at this advanced hour to the Dylan refrain, "Everybody must be stoned." Ludwig mentioned the explosives again today--guess he can't be bothered to read other posts? The news I read this morning HERE IN THE MEXICAN NEWSPAPERS indicated that one of the Al Quaeda groups had claimed responsibility for the downing of the airliners as a protest against the genocide taking place in Chechenia. It all sounds a bit too familiar--copycat of March 11 in Madrid, maybe? What I HOPE it isn't is Putin copycatting the Bush Gang copycatting the Reichstag Fire.

extoere · Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 543

Debs: What's wrong with wogs, spooks, and gooks? They're permitted on Dave's, aren't they? But, luckily for you, the endearment "BULL DY-CKES is well protected!

Ahhhhhh, just kiddin', Debs.
You Do Know, Don't You, How Much I Truly Value Your Input!

And Debs, Have A Reaaaaaaly Nice Day!

Carpet-Laying AND Carpet-Munching, Extoere

extoere · Joined: 23 Feb 2004 Posts: 543

Loon Ravin': That's it! You been drinkin' that Mexican water!

My best to Vicente!
Tell 'im to keep the help in his OWN kitchen.

cheers,
extoere

BethMac · Joined: 23 Dec 2003 Posts: 79

Explosive found at second Russian crash site

Last Updated Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:14:29 EDT

MOSCOW - Investigators have found traces of the powerful explosive hexogen in the wreckage of a second Russian passenger plane that crashed Aug. 24.

FROM AUG. 27, 2004: Explosives traces found at Russian plane crash site

At least 89 people were killed when two aircraft went down minutes of each after taking off from the same airport, Moscow's Domodedovo.

The flight crew of the Tu-154, bound for the Black Sea resort of Sochi, had activated a hijack alert moments before the crash near Rostov. The Tu-134 was bound for Volgograd and found near Tula.

On Friday, an official with Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) referred to the Tu-154 crash as a "terrorist act" after announcing there was evidence of hexogen on the plane's wreckage.

A website connected to Islamic militants claimed the crashes were in retaliation for Russia's civil war in Chechnya. A group called the Islambouli Brigades said they were the work of five mujahedeen who managed to sneak aboard each of the aircraft.

Russian officials said they were also investigating the backgrounds of two female passengers, one on each of the planes.

The passengers had Chechen surnames and had booked tickets on the flights at the last minute, officials said. They are the only victims who have so far not had any relatives inquire about them.

Russian officials had been warning that Chechen separatist rebels could launch attacks to undermine Sunday's presidential election in the war-torn region.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/08/28/russiaexplosives040828.html

Ludwig · Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:02 am Post subject:

'Moonraven', first, it is not a competition. Second, your mention of explosives was in obvious reference to only one of the planes. The post of mine to which you refer was in relation to the second aircraft.

The Dylan refrain is, 'Everybody must get stoned' (Rainy Day Women nos. 12 and 35)