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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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Aramas
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 874
Location: Slightly left of Centre
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 Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| We deserve much worse. |
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mcNug
Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 83
Location: HK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| More blood on John Howard's hands |
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El Llama
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 70
Location: The Big Durian
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| We deserve much worse. |
Who exactly makes up this "we" who deserved to be bombed? War criminals? Anyone who voted for the incumbent prime ministers / presidents who rule western countries? Anyone white? Anyone western?
None of the 9 people killed or 190+ injured fall into any of these categories as they are all Indonesian. Indonesian security guards, Indonesian gardeners, Indonesian workers on their way to their offices. Ordinary Indonesian people are the ones who suffered. Did they "deserve" it? But really, does anyone "deserve" to be bombed, whether they live in Indonesia, Afghanistan, the US, UK or Australia? Of course not. That it happens is a sad fact of the world we live in, but is not justified. |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| What is this bizarre need to blame everything on western governments and politicians? How about a little perspective! |
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mjed9
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
| How about a little perspective! |
Go on then ... enlighten me! |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Howard, Bush and Blair were not the ones driving a car packed full of explosives up to the Australian embassy.
The enemy here is Islamic terrorism. This doesn't mean we have to passively accept everything that our governments throw at us - but at the same time let's not forget that Bush and Blair are not the ones crying out...
| http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012 wrote: |
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. |
That's what I meant by perspective |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
The enemy here is Islamic terrorism.
| http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.012 wrote: |
I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. |
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Err, leeroy, I hate to diswhatever you but that quote sounds suspiciosly like the other so many quotes from the parts of the Old Testament that are held sacred not only by the believers in Christianity and Judaeism, but also Islam.
You seem to be conflating terrorism with fundamentalism. Terrorism is a method, not an ideology or, God forbid, a religion.
Maybe if 'our' fundamentalists ceased to direct so much weaponry at nations who aren't doing 'our' bidding 'we' wouldn't find ourselves creating the very conditions in which such a backlash becomes inevitable.
An eye for an eye doesn't make much sense anymore. Nor does directing one's people to massacre the enemy and ensure that not one man, woman or child survive. We are not semi-nomadic sheep-herders fighting for grazing rights. Old Testament strictures are not so much irrelevant, as extremely dangerous.
Here endeth today's lesson.
sns
Last edited by stillnosheep on Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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denise
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 3419
Location: finally home-ish
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Innocent people never deserve to die for the wrongdoings of their government.
Every time there is a random attack, I wonder how many of the victims were opposed to US/western involvement (imperialism?) in Iraq. No matter how peaceful the ideology (as with the two Italian women just kidnapped in Iraq), somehow we are all lumped together. It saddens and disgusts me.
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le0n
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 786
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:56 am Post subject: |
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To blame John Howard is perhaps a little rough, sure blame what he, Tony Blair and George W stand for yes.
An interesting aspect is has anyone watched the New Zealand Dollar over the last 12 months? 12 months ago it was was NZD$1.20 to AUD$1.00 this morning it was NZD$1.05 to the Aussie dollar, thats a good gain over 12 months. Why?
Because they stay out of world politics and get on with running the country.
Wish our guys ( Little Johnny ) would do this instead of trying to be a world statesman. Read Bush bum boy.
Too late now. |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Old Testament strictures are not so much irrelevant, as extremely dangerous. |
Agreed. Fundamentalism is a dangerous thing.
| Quote: |
Maybe if 'our' fundamentalists ceased to direct so much weaponry at nations who aren't doing 'our' bidding 'we' wouldn't find ourselves creating the very conditions in which such a backlash becomes inevitable. |
Here is where our opinions differ. I do not see "terrorism" now as solely a backlash (thus implying it is wholly deserved) against evil Western imperialism. While Bush (Putin, etc..) is certainly a catalyst in some ways, I don't think the root cause of terrorism lies solely in the West, Capitalism or the Zionist Conspiracy. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Maybe if 'our' fundamentalists ceased to direct so much weaponry at nations who aren't doing 'our' bidding 'we' wouldn't find ourselves creating the very conditions in which such a backlash becomes inevitable. |
Here is where our opinions differ. I do not see "terrorism" now as solely a backlash (thus implying it is wholly deserved) against evil Western imperialism. While Bush (Putin, etc..) is certainly a catalyst in some ways, I don't think the root cause of terrorism lies solely in the West, Capitalism or the Zionist Conspiracy. |
Nobody ever said that "terrorism" is solely a backlash or that it's roots lie 'solely' anywhere. It's a method man! A method!
What is obvious from history is that violence begets violence and increased oppression creates the kind of conditions in which the oppressed are likely to condone, or at least passively accept, more and more desperate responses up to and including the use of measures here (ie in this thread) designated as "terrorist". And in the Middle East the degree of oppression is presently such that such reponses can be considered inevitable. This is not a moral point but a factual one.
The root cause of terrorism lies in oppression, in hopelessness, in feelings of lack of power, and in desperation; or of course for the religous right amongst us in original sin, man's inherent evil nature or that of the infidel. |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And in the Middle East the degree of oppression is presently such that such reponses can be considered inevitable. |
Agreed. But Bush (etc..) is not the only one doing the oppressing. Can the dire situation of so many in the Middle East be blamed solely on The West and Israel? |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Nowhere did I write that "Bush (etc..) is [...] the only one doing the oppressing".
Nowhere did I write that "the dire situation of so many in the Middle East [can] be blamed solely on The West and Israel"
I wrote that in the Middle East the degree of oppression is presently such that such responses can be considered inevitable.
I consider that to be a factual statement, not a moral one.
If you wish to disagree please do so but if you continue to misrepresent my views I will be forced to resort to ridicule.
Last edited by stillnosheep on Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| "in the Middle East the degree of oppression is presently such that such reponses [bombings and violence] can be considered inevitable." |
I agree! 
To what extent do you believe this atmosphere of oppression in the Middle East is "The West"'s fault? I inferred from earlier posts on this thread that many people think "quite a lot", I would push closer towards "a bit".
| Quote: |
Nowhere did I write that "the dire situation of so many in the Middle East [can] be blamed solely on The West and Israel" |
I know! It was simply a question, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. |
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