Job Discussion Forums

[nomadder]

[dmb]

What a great post nomadder. I get a bit peeved when people with crappy Englsh try to speak to me in crappy English when it would be easier to speak in to L2.
I don't consider myself very fluent in L2

[stillnosheep]

[denise]

I think nomadder's mention of a disadvantage refers to those of us who do as our L1--if the rest of the world is studying English, it's harder for us to practice our L2. No need to mock her for making a very valid point and a very valid post.

I enjoy studying languages, and I will continue to study the language of whichever country I live in, but I, too, have not mastered any. The Spanish that I studied in my youth has all but disappeared from my memory, and the Czech and Japanese that I have studied more recently are still at basically pre-elementary levels. I can do the most basic of functions in Japanese, and carry on stilted conversations about a very narrow range of topics, but simple comphrension of most things still eludes me. The Japanese staff at my school are all fluent in English, so with them I communicate entirely in English. Out in the town, it's all Japanese, but people will sometimes throw in the odd English word or sentence to help out. I appreciate it, because it often means the difference between successful/unsuccessful communications.

I am experiencing serious motivational problems right now with my Japanese study. I feel like I will never progess (despite people dropping their jaws and squealing with delight at my ability to order a drink in Japanese), and since I don't think I will stay here much longer, I'm tempted to give up and start brushing up on my Spanish instead.

d

[patchwork]

I speak perfect English and French but that's because I learned them in kindergarden and grade school and where I grew up (Montreal, Canada), everyone speaks both languages. Well, almost everyone

I tried learning Italian and I found it hard because all my Italian friends kept talking to me in English, not Italian, despite having told them many time 'sempre Italiano'.

I assume I will run into these same problems if/when I live in Taiwan and try to learn Mandarin. I have taken courses here for the past 6 months and have been practicing with my girlfriend, but I'm no where near able to make full sentences on my own, I can just say the ones I know.

Good luck to us aspiring language learners !

[moonraven]

It isn't carved in stone that you will not be able to master other languages. I have been in Mexico more than 10 years now, and I can describe what I did to master Spanish.

1. Because I wanted to write theater pieces in Spanish about a revolutionary figure, Emiliano Zapata, I started out living in the village where he was born--where no foreigners had lived before, and where almost nobody spoke any English. I ate in the mercado, and I talked to everybody.

2. I began translating my poetry into Spanish to expand my vocabulary quickly. I had two or three people helping me--not because they knew any English--but because they could tell me if the poems worked in Spanish.

3. I gave myself the goal of reading one book a day in Spanish--books by folks such as Garc�a Marquez. (It took me 6 months to reach my goal.)

4. I read the newspaper in Spanish every day, and discussed the articles with a friend who teaches at the national university. I also borrowed a lot of his books and we discussed them.

5. When I had to write something in Spanish I did NOT write it in English first.

6. I gave public readings from my poetry in Spanish to get over feeling like my work in my second language was second rate.

7. I formed a theater group and produced and directed my own works about Zapata.

8. When I am not working somewhere else I live with a family of campesinos in the same village where Zapata was born.

9. I gave talks about agrarian reform (from a book in progress) and the power of the mass media in Venezuela at universities in Mexico and Ecuador.

10. I am just finishing teaching a course in learning Strategies that I developed in Spanish in a summer university program.

That's how I have mastered another language. It wasn't and isn't easy--especially since I started with this at 49. I have an aptitude for languages (stumble along speaking French, Italian, and Portugese--but read pretty well in all three and used to do translations from Latin and German), but I no longer have the rapid language learning ability I had as a teenager. If you really want to master another language, I believe you need to be able to create in it.

[kev7161]

If the language is interesting enough to me, then I'll try to learn some of it. But, really, we are here to TEACH English and that is why most of us are where we are today. I came to China, not because I enjoy or want to learn their language, but for the teaching experience. I do get frustrated when I'm in a situation where nobody speaks any English, but then I realize I won't be here long enough to make it worthwhile for me to learn more than a few simple phrases. Is that me being superior? No, it's me being lazy. China has not gripped me enough to make me want to stay beyond the two years I will eventually be here. If I was endlessly fascinated by this culture and I vowed to stay here for several years, then there would be no doubt I would work much harder on learning their language. But it hasn't, so I won't.

[lajzar]

I resemble that remark. One time I was trying to learn Maltese. Ok, its a little obscure I know, but its my mother's first language, so I have an excuse.

We were sitting with a group of my mums friends in Malta. I said something in Maltese, and suddenly it was Oh My GAWD! Look Everyone! He's speaking Maltese! Everyone stop and cheer!

Naturally, that put me off continuing my Maltese learning attempt

I really didn't help that everyone really did stop and cheer too.
[/b]

[mjed9]

Yes a good OP. I have been in Taiwan for two years now and always wondered how easy it is to avoid learning any Chinese. I know some people who have been here for 4 years plus and can only just manage some rudimentary comments and remarks (usually derogatory ones).

I have at least tried and now speak what I guess I can call a low intermediate level of Chinese. However returning to my previous comment, it is all too easy not to learn.

I work in an English-speaking environment where Chinese really is banned (and this is enforced).

I have many Taiwanese friends who all speak great English so for ease of communication that is the preferred language.

I work all day and have little time to properly dedicate myself to Chinese study (although this is more of an excuse than anything else )

Also I am really stupid so my learning curve is stupefyingly slow!

[Alitas]

Some great strategies. Read literature in the target language and do not be afraid to stumble and miss words. I learn many words through context. My first Spanish book was "El Alquimista" by Paolo Coelho and I have since moved on to Marquez, Rosario Ferre, Neruda, a great book of Dominican shorts ("Cuentos Dominicanos") and the list goes on. I try to write poetry in Spanish but have had better luck at listing my cooking misadventures on www.cocinadominicana.com. I also read the papers in Spanish, and lots of blogs in Spanish. Another excellent point of Moonraven's was writing in Spanish instead of English to Spanish.

I learned Spanish at 15, by living with a host family in an environment where Spanish was spoken 98% of the time. The other 2% was spent talking English. There were some horrible speakers I politely listened to but usually I spoke back in Spanish since that was the point of my stay. When I was very, very tired I reverted to English...but after about 7 months of immersion I was dreaming in L2 and when I became tired I just went to bed .

I've never had a lick of formal training, and recently scored at an advanced mid level on the ACTFL OPI (good enough for my teaching credential). In my travels to to Venezuela and the DR, most people don't even try English with me because they assume I don't know it!!

The one place I have been to where I had no help in learning the language was France. The attitude I encountered was that I could never master it so why bother? Of course this was not everyone in the whole country of France--but most people saw me as a student/tourist/idiot from America. Too bad, really. I'm one of those who can pick up languages rather easily, if I get a chance to use them.

Is it rude to expect people to master English? Do I expect my students to master Spanish? I think it's very hard to master a language if you do not use it to create.....like MR said. If you have no use for it, than you might as well forget it (and most people do).

[Lynn]

Wonderful post, Nomadder. You touched on many topics that I've also thougth about.

[leeroy]

In a way I'm lucky here in London - in that I can't be expected to speak the languages of all my students (though I try )

Part of what stops me from just packing my bags and moving to Spain now is that mi espanol es lamentable, uh, estado practicando con mis estudiantes pero tengo que tratar, um, harder . I'd feel unprofessional teaching Spanish people (in Spain) English if I didn't have more than a rudimentary understanding of their language. This isn't to say that I think "all teachers should speak the language of their students" (although that would be nice)- rather it is a personal issue of mine

[Sekhmet]

I've been attempting to learn various languages since I was young, and never had a huge amount of success with them. Howeverm Arabic is coming surprisingly easily for me at the moment - mainly because I have to use it on a daily basis, because a lot of people I have to communicate with don't speak any English!!!
The major problem is writing and reading. Because Egyptian Arabic is basically a different language to MSA, I'm having to learn 2 different languages at once!!!
But I agree with a lot of the other posters - the best way is to practice as much as possible, and pracitising every skill...
Arabic is fun!!!!!!

[Roger]

It shows poor imagination when someone complains everybody is learning English and I can't make any progress in any of my students' L 1. The misconception here seems to be that if people don't give you a "chance" to use it orally you can't use it. How silly!

As some Spanish learners have shown so eloquently, you need the language if you want to lead a somewhat normal life in a country where your first language is forewign - by merely keeping abrweast of what's going on in the world. Don't you ever browse through any mags and dailies in the country hwere you are? Teaching English in Madrid and ignoring El Tiempo? Living in Paris and never opening a Canard enchaine or a Nouvel Observateur??? DER SPIEGEL in Berlin? Shame on you!

Besides, I don't like translated books as well as I like novels in the author's original version!

It really isn't hard to retain a minimum fluency in any second acquired tongue! I write my diary in French, for example!

[katy]

We are not disadvantaged at all. We are at a distinct advantage that we can travel extensively without having to worry about the language. I'm happy if I can communicate with people. Often when I travel that tends to be in English, thankfully as it means I don't have to learn a few hundred languages.

In Southern Italy I can't say I have been inundated with offers to speak my native language outside the classroom. If I bump into my students outside the classroom they will almost always launch into Italian, even higher level students, and even if they've never heard me speak Italian. And they are all aware that my Italian is fairly ropey - almost always not as good as their English. I was also pleasantly surprised on a recent trip to Berlin that for the most part people were willing to entertain my school girl German.

If you really want to learn the local tongue, the important thing is not to give up. The opportunities are out there. The only problem is that it can be too easy to be complacent. If the person you're talking to insists on speaking English it doesn't mean you have to. Sooner or later you will be talking to someone who thinks, actually he/she is quite good and reverts back to their L1. Until than you may have to put up with the surprised expressions that you have uttered a phrase in Maltese/Mandarin/ Urdu or whatever. And above all don't be afraid of making mistakes and sounding stupid. Isn't that what you tell your students?