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[hhyy]

like where your students are already reasonably fluent. Maybe university grads in Beijing/Shanghai, employees in English-speaking companies?

I wonder what their English is like and what their problems are.


Thanks

[Roger]

It would seem to me that you haven't been to China yet...
Ask any school, and they will give you rave school reportsnon their students' english, and test these self-same students in any street, and you will find that they must have forgotten any English they may ever have known within the twenty minutes that passeed between their leaving their classrooms and meeting you!

You asked, what might be their problems?
Here is one pointer: it may be memory, it may be practical abilities. They certainly are labouring under self-delusions here!

[millie]

their problems are (as for all ESL learners) ---in no special order:
Pron
Fleuncy
Lexis
Grammar

I mean ...com'n ...wot sort of question is that

[Larry Parnell]

I think I'm teaching 'advanced English' I use words like 'this morning' and 'different'. My students, who have been learning English for 6 years, have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Sinobear]

I think the biggest problem is that English is considered to be last on the priority list for both the students and the schools. The best (read: motivated) students are those who have a strong desire to succeed in a J.V. company or those who have an actual interest in languages.
As with any other subject, students here remember only what they need to know for their exams, then forget it.
My former college grads not only lose their English conversational skills after one year (biggest reason - lack of use), but also their math and geography skills.

[laodeng]

This is a great mystery to me: a handful of my students are incredibly fluent, much more so than my Chinese colleagues who supposedly teach English. These students have usually not had a lot of (worthless) cram classes at private schools. And they are usually not English majors. The only distinguishing characteristic that I have noted is an insatiable curiosity about vocabulary and usage, most particularly in the area of pragmatics. As they used to say in my old New York neighborhood, "Go figure!"

[hhyy]

[cimarch]

I've taught a couple of classes like that, they were short-term intensive classes, 3-6 hours a day for a couple of weeks, mainly for people preparing to leave the country or for promotion interviews or business reasons.

To be honest to reach an advanced level you must be able to self motivate and teach yourself, anyone who gets to that level has little need of a teacher. Plus there are seldom enough students to make up a class.

They were great classes to teach, mainly explaining complex points of grammar, advanced vocabulary and idioms. They mostly wanted a chance to prcatice their advanced skills with people who would actually understand them. Great debates and discussions, speeches , improvisation and off-the cuff roleplays, business manners and inter-cultural awareness/interaction.

[millie]

Hello hhyy,

It would seem that you would need to do a needs analysis to have a clear idea of exactly how they use English in their life. Some, for example, may be mainly dealing with documents/e-mail etc while others may have a great deal of face to face or phone contact. A different learning emphasis for each obviously.

One of the areas I find problematic with some higher level learners is not so much a lack of vocab. but inappropriate use of (sometimes odd or low frequency) words. This reduces fluency or makes for awkward writing.

Certainly, they need to be exposed to a greater range of natural and appropriate use of English so that they can model the same (be it suitable written or spoken forms).

I know this will sound very un-scientific to some but it certainly seems to me that some people have a “language leaning chip” (i.e. they pick-up language very well); whereas others struggle along with great determination.
Especially for the latter, I think they will only attain a higher proficiency in English with (say, 12 months or more) of immersion in an English speaking country. I don’t mean that improvement can’t be made at higher levles but it becomes a one of increasingly more marginal returns for a given effort.

Cheers
M

[Roger]

Awright, my native Beijinger friend: why didn't you tell us right upfront that you are a Chinese?

You should have an insider's take of what's wrong with your studentsw' English. They surely don't get too few lessons; rather the opposite!

As a matter of fact, some of my best Chinese English speakers have not been to college or university. They taught themselves. And they are active learners, not passive recipients of pre-chewed stuff their teachers pour into them.

I am inclined to say the longer anyone is exposed to Chinese schooling the worse these people function in real life situations.

[hhyy]

Thanks for all the advice. It's very interesting to know what you folks are thinking. Sometimes I got this feeling that the whole ESL education here is just a sham.

To Rogers: I've mentioned that I am Chinese in my first post and a couple of other posts too. (On China Off-topic) but you are right, maybe I should've said something about myself being non-FT in this post.

About the topic, I am particularly interested in training for people leaving China. Just wondering in your classes for those high-level students, how often, if evern, do you correct them? damn, I am hammered righ now. my drinking buddy just left. gotta get some sleep come back tomorrow and edit this post.

[cimarch]

With Advanced students I rarely correct immediately as I have them doing long, interactive activities. I take notes and run through and discuss the mistakes after the activity. the emphasis is not on correcting but on why the mistake was made, often it's just forgetfulness or a slip of the tongue but sometimes it can be a deeply ingrained mistake forcefully taught by a previous teacher.

On a side-note, one of my Chinese colleagues came back laughing from observing a class at a local Middle school. The worst of the many mistakes made by their teacher was to hold up a picture of a banana and drill them that it was an apple. She actually argued with her when corrected after the class.

[badtyndale]

[quote="hhyy"] Sometimes I got this feeling that the whole ESL education here is just a sham.[quote]

Perhaps not the whole... but certainly a significant proportion may be considered less than reputable. I was first lured here under the promise that I would be teaching EAP to students intending to take up university places in the UK. Most of my 'advanced' learners turned out to be at elementary level (or below - some couldn't even respond to 'hello' without delving for the electronic dictionary).

Vocabulary (and appropriate usage) does prove problematic because there seems to be a need to impress with quantity (whilst lacking comprehension or grammatical awareness). Many's the time I had to try to impress upon the Chinese teachers that learning lists of words divorced from any context was not an entirely suitable approach to take. Not an easy task when they're flapping about with worry because they don't understand what 'appendicitis' means, for example, in a text dealing with a much simpler idea of types of question words, i.e. 'where...?' (does it hurt?). Part of the fault lies in reliance upon textbooks that should perhaps be better designed, and part with a lack of training in some awareness of these matters amongst local teachers.

As for (real) advanced-level students, I prefer to correct inappropriacy purely and simply because it is what it is. The students that fall into the advanced level categories are usually capable of understanding subtleties and are often keen to demonstrate such understanding because of the implications concomitant with their professions. When (during a tutorial) and how one decides to correct depends upon the situation, of course. Some (common?) problems I find may be considered simply minor stylistic annoyances. For example, the tendency to begin statements of fact or intent with, "I think..." or, "Maybe..."

[Roger]

I am totally in line with badtyndale. Yes, the English-teaching scene in China is serious business but it degenerates into a sham because the subject is so divorced from its practical applications - students memorising merely for an upcoming exam, then forgetting things again, and being bored by the repetiveness of the whole learning process.

As for CORRECTING my students: I want them first of all to PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS BEING SAID, and thus, they learn to identify mistakes made by their own peers. The most recurrent ones are those they have to correct first, and believe me, these inevitably are grammar errors.
To make them really aware of how confusing grammatically-incorrect English is I have them write down what they are saying, or I give them dictations.

The most regular mistakes are poor SVA (verbs with the third person but without final-S), wrong tenses, use of wrong modal verbs ("I would graduate in 1984..." instead of "I will..."), poor grasp of articles, confusion between HE and SHE.

These mistakes should actually not occur when students have had English for more than 5 years. But they routinely do, and that's what they must not forgive themselves for doing any more. Hence I let them correct themselves...

[hhyy]

hmm....... so it seems that the advanced students still struggle with the most basics.

I've been always wondering this:

when your students walk out of the classroom, what do you expect them to bring away with them? how do you measure or identify their progress? a couple of more idioms? increase in proficiency? better pronounciation? more understanding of the English culture(s)? Probably all of them. In order to better function in an English speaking environment, all of above are important, but given the limit of time and resources they have, what would be the most efficient thing(s) for them to spend more time on?


Sorry, another vague question.It would be completely understandable if you dont know what the hell I am talking about.

Its just that there are too many questions in my head and I am trying to construct some kinda of reasoning or system. Maybe I should wait till my idea gets more developed.

Thanks for all the replies btw. I am still digesting them.