Job Discussion Forums

[Ria]

I am researching EFL/ESL as a 'career' possibility. I have been frequenting Dave's Cafe for quite some time and have learned much from the information posted here. I am very grateful to have this resource, and am truly thankful that there are people out there who take the time to share their experiences and knowledge! That said, I am also nervous about posting my first serious question. So be gentle! I am sincere.

My question is this: From all my research, one of the things I have gleaned (does anyone use that word anymore? And did I spell it correctly?) is that in order to work legally in many countries one must have a degree. Is it important whether it is a 3 year degree or a 4 year degree? I have a 3 year BA (graduated 1988!) in an unrelated subject. Would it be advisable to upgrade it? I plan to do the CELTA anyway. I want to try at least a year of teaching to see if I am really cut out for it, then if I love it as much as I hope to, would definitely consider expanding on my education, including (possibly) an MA. A secondary question would then be, if I do an MA (eventually), could I be accepted as a mature student, or would I still need a 4 year degree? I am a 36 year old Canadian woman, if that helps. Also (one more question), I hope to teach in my home country eventually. Does anyone have any career-planning advice? Fellow Canadians?

Thank you in advance for any responses, I know I am asking a lot! This is rather a longer post than I thought it would be! I also thank all of you for the 'entertainment' you have all provided me with in recent months! There are some truly witty people posting on this site. I hope you know who you are!
Ria xox
P.S. Feel free to PM me anytime.

[Irish]

Hey Ria:

Did you have a specific country in mind? You might get better answers by posting your question in specific country forums. My understanding is that for Japan and Korea, 3-year degrees are fine--the pros will correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding entering an MA program with a 3-year degree...this depends on the institution. Using my university as an example, I think your odds of being admitted would be very good. Not only would they look at your undergraduate record, they'd also consider your teaching experience. With the CELTA under your belt, they might let you test out of some required courses, although you'd still have to complete the full number of credit hours (you'd just do it with extra electives). I'd say that most of the students in my MA program have BAs unrelated to the subject (like me), so that doesn't seem to be a big deal. At that other, bigger, more competitive, more prestigious institution over in Manoa Valley, it might be a different story...but, all in all, I think you're fine.

So, you find us entertaining, do you? Wow. Well, if we haven't scared you off yet, I guess we must welcome you to the fold.

Best of luck,

Irish

[Ria]

Irish,

Thanks! So nice to get such a quick reply with useful info. And, without gushing, you are one of the posters whose opinion I value, so doubley (sp?) cool!

To answer your question, I don't have a specific country in mind as of yet. I still have a lot of preparation to do before I even apply for the CELTA (in other words, must save mucho dineros for the course, taking time off without paycheck, job hunt, back-up for horrendous situations, etc.). However, I am interested in places such as Vietnam (and maybe other SE Asian countries), Turkey, Eastern Europe (provided they are/remain non-EU), and perhaps Central/South America. I would be willing to suck it up and work in Japan or China (or similar) for a year or two of experience.

It was encouraging to hear your comments re: an MA. It has been so long since I have had any formal education that I guess I'm feeling a little intimidated by the prospect. One of the reasons I think I will go with CELTA is that I have heard it can be credited towards a Masters. I don't care if it is a major uni, as long as it is respectable.

Hell yeah you guys scared me! It took me a year to register and another month or so to post! But I ain't afraid of y'all no more, no way, no how. Kidding. I do think, though, that it is important to understand as much as possible the question that you are asking (or face slaughter). Yes, many of you are entertaining, and some are not. But thanks, Irish. My first welcome into the fold![/i]

[Irish]

You're too kind, Ria--but don't thank me unless I'm right (and I'm often not).

One other note on the CELTA (which you probably already know but I include for the sake of completeness): not all schools give credit for it. If you've got some programs in mind, you could ask them about it now. Even if your dream school won't give you credit, you'll still be one-up on terrified classmates without that experience. And that's besides all the benefits it will give you for your job.

Yes, we're scary people, all right, but our bark is worse than our bite. Except for scot47--but he only bites clueless backpackers so you're safe.

Talk to you later,

Irish

[Ria]

Aww, scot47 is harmless, as long as you treat him with the proper respect! And I have diluted Scottish genes, so maybe he'll tolerate me, even though I have been know to throw a backpack on from time to time. Thanks for the heads-up re: CELTA credits. Bonne nuit!

[johnslat]

Dear Ria,
As per your request, I looked at this thread. However, I fear I'm clueless with regard to offering any helpful advice on this subject ( which is why I hadn't viewed it before ). Heck, I didn't even know there WERE such things as " 3 year degrees ". From what I can guess, though, I'd say Irish, as usual, is offering some good advice. Hope some other non-clueless posters weigh in soon, as well.
Regards,
John

[Celeste]

Ria,
What University did you go to? I think it doesn't matter how many years your degree took, as much as it matters the number of course credit hours you took? Did you receive university credit for advanced courses in high school? Did you do a programme that allowed you to study in year round semesters, rather than breaking for the summers?

I am very curious about this.

Celeste

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Hello Ria:

Welcome aboard the Dave-Train.

Now I'm not 100% certain about this, but let me add this little caution to the other good advice you've already received. Some countries do make a distinction between a 3 year and a 4 year degree. (i.e. diploma vs. degree) when it comes to the issuance of working visas.

Employers could generally care less; it's the visa thing we're talking about here.

If I remember correctly, Thailand has recently modified its regulations in this regard, and now requires a 4 year degree. I recall reading the same thing about Korea, but I can't and won't bet my life on it. I left Korea several years ago and I'm just not up-to-date on the current situation there anymore.

As Irish suggested, your best bet is to post this question in the specific country forums that you're considering, after you've narrowed it down a bit.

Good luck, Ria
keNt

PS: Your 3 year BA in combination with a CELTA will be fine for the vast majority of EFL positions, so don't worry; be happy!

[Ria]

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies.

Celeste: I went to the University of Ottawa. As I mentioned in my original post, I graduated in '88, so am a bit fuzzy on some of the details you asked about. I graduated high school from grade 13 (don't know if that even exists anymore), but I don't think it affected anything. Also, I remember taking a full course load one summer at uni, but I also don't think that affected anything! I would have to contact them to get the specifics regarding credit hours.

KeNt: I am 100% certain that I have a degree and NOT a diploma. The university that I went to made a distinction between 3 year degrees (in which you 'concentrated' in a certain subject) and 4 year "Honour" degrees (in which you 'majored' in a certain subject). I have no idea why. Thank you for your very good advice, however. It's good to know that some countries pay attention to the difference (visa-wise), and I will be sure to look into it before I go anywhere. Sadly, it won't be soon!

Thanks again, all!

[Glenski]

[Ria]

Oops. Sorry Glenski, my intentions were not to offend anyone. I worded it poorly. What I SHOULD have written was that Japan and China were not among my first choices of places to teach, as a newbie. Indeed, I would very much like to visit both countries and maybe even teach there someday. It is more of a 'culture shock' concern for me (although I know it can happen anywhere). I'd rather start off my teaching experiences somewhere a little less extreme (in my perception) so that I'm not completely overwhelmed. However, I will take the experience where I can, to start off, if I'm unable to secure a job in any of the other countries I'm interested in. I really do have the highest level of respect for those of you working in a country and culture vastly different from wherever "home" is, especially if it is enjoyed, and perhaps even finding it has become more like home than "home" itself.

[G Cthulhu]

Three years, four years - who cares. :)

IMO, most of the regulations specifiying things like four year degrees are specifically aimed at people coming out of the US where it is just too easy to get a 'degree' from somewhere that is educationally worthless.

So long as you have a real degree from a real university then it will be accepted, regardless of the nominal/average time the degree takes to get. After all, a NZ or Oz degree is clearly and obviously accepted all over the world (except, ironically, in the US, where they often simply don't understand anything outside their own system (no, that's not a flame or a troll, that's just a comment based on the bitter experience of myself and others. YMMV)) and most of those are three years.




G. Cthulhu
[email protected]

[arioch36]

I know Canada has a lot of three year schools, in the US usually two year or four year.

I believe really crap schools couldn't care less. A white young face is most important, often.Thus a CELTA type course also means nothing. In China, the better colleges want you to have a 4 year degree. China itself has 3 year degree schools...they are for people who did poorly on the college entrance exam. So in China they percieve a difference, and there is a stigma attached, and a three year degree is not really seen as a "real degree".
But this is only if you want to teach at colleges. The better the teaching atmosphere, the more they care. Only makes sense, right? Virtually no schools care about a Cert course. From reading Japan, the same seems true there. Glenski?

Mostly for the worse, MA's are the thing of the future. When i see a difference in teaching, I see MA's as worse teachers, I can be biased.

If you work first and then do a MA, you will know how worthless and untrue much of what they teach is, but might be able to apply your personal experience. If you do a MA without teaching first, you will enjoy it more and gush at all the marvelous things they teach. Then you will go to actually teach, and realize that most of the people teaching you are not perfessional teachers, and don't know what they are talking about.

Many 3 year Chinese students go to France because they can enter the MA program with a 3 year degeee (Also means that the France MA has a stigma attached to it in China)

Happy hunting

[Snappin]

In the UK three year degrees are the norm for the majority of subjects. You might do a four year course if you were studying two subjects, but otherwise there is no choice but for it to be three years; even Oxford and Cambridge.

Hope this doesn't mean there is prejudice shown to people from a country who had no choice but to do a three year degree.

[Ria]

Thank you everyone for your insights. I found it interesting to learn that 3 year degrees are the norm in many places. I didn't know that. So maybe I shouldn't worry so much about my 3 year degree after all? Anyway, I found the comments encouraging.

arioch36: If I do a cert course, it will be more for self-preparation than for employment requirements. (better some than none, no?). I also plan to have some teaching experience behind me before possibly pursuing an MA. But, are you saying one can be a better teacher without an MA? I thought your post was relevant, but it may be that I have misunderstood you. I would be interested in hearing more about why you think MA's are "for the worse". I hope to teach at the 'better' schools/colleges in the long run.

Snappin: I, too, hope that prejudice is not shown toward those with 3 year degrees. In my case, I had a choice--I could have done a 4 year degree but didn't. Would that play into it? As
G Cthulhu said, "3 year, 4 year, who cares?" I agree that if it is a real degree from a real university it should be accepted, but does that mean that countries requiring 4 year degrees for visas will discriminate against non-U.S. 3 year degree-holders? (arioch36 made a good point about 'perception' in China). Or would they take your nationality into consideration? I suppose that would be a question for country-specific forums, but what about in a general sense? Does the reputation of the U.S. system adversely affect the rest of us who want to work legally with our 3 year degrees? I'm not trying to open up a can of worms, just curious is all.