Job Discussion Forums

[millie]

Hello Kev,

I am afraid that I will tend to contradict most of the posters on this thread perhaps with the exception of “peggiescott”, Roger and to some extent “go_ABs”.

At the outset I am not saying that learning cannot be an enjoyable experience but it also requires effort and participation on the part of the learners.
However, I become very concerned with the notion that you need to provide fun and entertainment for an audience. It sends the wrong signals to students and will undermine your serious intent as a teacher.

It is clear you are trying to be an active and concerned teacher and you will have these students for a semester, perhaps longer.

The issue of disruptive/ inattentive / disinterested students is the bane of all teachers and there is no single easy solution. If anyone could think of a quick-fix to this problem, please patent the product because every teacher in the world will beat a path to your door to buy it.

Of concern is that it appears your school in not totally supportive of you. As well, you are part of the “education as a product” industry (an increasingly common phenomenon world-wide) and so the “purchasers” of the product need to feel that they are getting their money’s worth. Hence the problem you describe “the director is telling me I can't keep students from attending my class”. From that point of view, it is understandable.

If I can offer a few ideas that may work in your specific situation:

Make it clear that students who attend your class must respect the learning environment of others. Admonish the trouble-makers in front of the all class by apologising for their behaviour to all other students.
(eg: I’m very sorry everyone, but we will wait until “Kobe” and “Beckham” stop talking because we can’t learn while they do. (Waiting…..) Thank you “Kobe” and “Beckham”, I am sorry everyone – now we can continue…)

Don’t come across as the jack-booted heavy but use the opinion and perception of the whole class to act against this undesirable behaviour. You have to be consistent and keep at it.

Don’t set up a conflictual situation.
After class say to them “look boys, I know how you feel. If you sleep or rest, that is OK – I know you like basketball more. But no talking OK- sleeping is no problem - but sssshhh!)

Use an increasing scale of “punishments”.

Make the trouble-makers aplogise in front of the all class.
Make them agree not to do it again.

Next, repeat trouble-makers need to stand up at the back of the class.

Then, warn them that their parents, who are footing the bill, will be notified.
(The parents would be horrified if the knew what their kids are and aren’t doing!)

Finally, notify their parents, using the school admin to do so.

You may think of other means that will fit your circumstance but you must be consistent and persistent.
Unfortunately, this all takes (your) time and energy.

Best of luck.
M

[yaco]

I fail to understand why teachers are being advised to ' not treat their students seriously '.

Would we do the same in ' Western Countries ' when we have troublesome students ?

[millie]

(more or less) ditto yaco

[joe greene]

A lot of frustration of FTs at public schools stems from the fact that we don't know the layout of the English curriculum, and the Chinese don't want to tell us. The English department doesn't want us messing in their business, sticking our big noses in where we're not welcome, and offering unsolicited opinions on what to teach and how to teach it. On a basic level, they're being territorial. Within each English department, there is a recognized literature expert, grammar expert, literary criticism expert, linguistics expert, etc. Their specialty defines their social status within the department. There is at least one Chinese teacher who teaches “Business” English. If some FT comes along and tries to horn in on his specialty and show him how it's done, he will lose a tremendous amount of face. Do not fight against the Chinese! It is their country, they will win every time. You will only embarrass yourself. If you push too hard, you will make everyone miserable.

Just playing with the kids is good for them. They are compelled to speak English, because there is no other way for us to communicate if the FT doesn't speak Chinese. When they get a FT, for the first time in their lives they must actually produce semantically coherent English. We are the ultimate litmus test. If we can't understand them, then the Chinese teachers aren't doing their job. The Chinese teachers are understandably paranoid about this, which is why they try to keep us marginalized. On any given day, the risk is high that some FT will contradict a Chinese teacher. They work hard to minimalize the loss of face: "FTs don't know grammar, FTs aren't serious scholars, FTs just come to China to play," etc.

Fight the power? Go ahead. Nothing in China is accomplished through direct confrontation.

[Madmaxola]

The only way to get kids to stop jerking around is to use discipiline.

Oh no the d word.

Well, this is how you do it.

1. Never ignore the problem.

-This is your classroom. YOURS. If someone is in the back talking while your trying to do somehting, they're coming into your house and pooping on your coffee table, are you gonna allow that? nope. You can't sit there and pretend those kids aren't goofing off in back,
[i]that just allows that problem to escalate

When you ignore it, it gets worse. The longer you ignore it, the harder it is to fix.
Period.
I've been in many teachers classes where I've realiyed immediately they've been ignoring the problem all semester. Nothing gets done in class.

2.You must make it clear when and what will happen

- You must be very open and loud about No talking in Chinese(for example). Make sure everyone understands. Ask them to their face do you understand? yes? good.

Next: someone will talk, halfway out of disbelief, halway out of testing you, halfway out of childish flighty-headedness (3 halves, I know)

Stop what you are doing. Make sure everyone knows you are stopping and class is stopped.

Tell the kid to stand up. (He's giggling)
Tell the kid to come to the front of the class. still funny
Have him sit with you by the board in front of everyone
Now he's suddenly getting shy

Now you have some options
a) Have him sit up there with you and be your aide, everyone gets a kick out of this, and suddenly the attention is back up front again.
b) have him sit by the board facing the class.
c) If you're really sick of him and you've had enough, explain to the class (and have them translate so everyone knows) "I am sorry for talking, teacher"
Then forgive him.
Then kick him out.

Nobody will want to go through that embarassment.
So the next time you stop the class and look peeved, everyone will shut up because they won't want to go through that.

Viola'

Where's my million dollars?

[millie]

Madmaxola wrote

[Antaraaaa]

Yaco??

No one said not to take teaching or your students seriously.

Do a careful reread: Don't take YOURSELF too seriously!!

Big Difference.

Anyhoooo, seeing as all the "serious" people are solving the problem,I can just sit back and take notes. I really do learn from you all so many thanks

Cheers,

Ant

Ps.

Kev, no disrespect intended. I also have "REAL" english lessons, I just try not to get my knickers in a twist about a lot of the things Joe (great post!) Greene so gracefully detailed.

Life is too short.

..........and how!! we just got word our cook's sister was killed in a car accident last night

[joe greene]

Regardless of what each person feels about this thread, please be very, very careful when disciplining Chinese students. Don't humiliate any students publicly, don't do anything outrageous, don't act like a Catholic nun.

You have two weapons to discipline Chinese students: attendance and marks. Use these. Take roll and submit attendance reports. In some schools, a monitor is responsible for taking attendance. Usually, they don't even bother; they mark everyone as present and then ask you to sign it. Take the time to fill it in. You can also mark down students who are late or leave early. They won't be happy, but it's your prerogative. The school has measures to punish students who exceed a certain number of absences. The 'late' and 'leave early' marks count as a fraction of an absence, so they add up, too.

Tell your students that class attendance and class conduct will influence their final mark. Factor this in for their mid-term marks. They should settle down by the end of the term. Most public schools will put you with the same students for the entire year, so think about discipline as a long term goal.

[laodeng]

I agree up to a point. And this point is face. (I guess we're talking about lian4.)

It seems that we, as a group, have been lectured so many times about the absolute necessity of preserving a student's "face," that in the process of bending over backwards, we accept the most outrageous behaviors--gross insolence, and worse. Behaviors that I suspect that a student would not dare subject a Chinese teacher to.

I try to be kind, humorous, gentle, tolerant . . . all those good things. But when a Chinese student gets in my face--and it has happened--he gets it with both barrels.

[kev7161]

I take attendance every day. I mark an "A" on the days they are absent. Next class period I ask for their note. If they have no note, I ask them to leave and they can come back when they have a note. Once or twice, a student has tracked down their head teacher and have come back in a few minutes time with said note. Often I will see them next class. Sometimes I don't see them again (except in the hallways). Case in point:

I have about 6 or 7 boys from one class who showed up on the first day and then I have not seen them since. As I've said before, no big loss. Yesterday, the Chinese English teacher came to me with four notes from four of these boys (in Chinese, naturally). He said the boys are apologizing and know they were wrong and want to come back to class. Guess what? The kids that WERE in class all along did so well on their recent exam that I promised them a movie for the next couple of classes. Hmmmm, I wonder why these boys want to come back NOW? And who wants to bet they would disappear after we've finished the movie? I told my CT friend that he could convey the message to them that they are welcome to return after we were done with the movie. Tomorrow, I'm going to amend that. I'm going to tell him to tell the students they must come see me and explain in English why they were absent for all of September and for much of October. Then I will tell them they can return after we've finished the movie.

I've been told that the director is (finally) going to arrange a meeting with the head teachers as I asked for 3 weeks ago. I still don't know why he's been dragging his feet on this request. I think other teachers are just as frustrated as I am with the trouble students. Maybe its high time we talked about this as PEERS and try to come up with some solutions. However, I'm a bit skeptical (I wonder why?) . . . I'll believe this meeting when I'm actually sitting in the room with the other teachers.

[laodeng]

Sorry, lian3. Third tone.

[Roger]

Our teaching style is characterised by a lot more activity which translates into more efforts on both sides of the fence - and for our CHinese students this comes as a novelty! They are trained and conditioned to be at the passively receiving end of "knowledge', and they have absolutely no practical handfs-on experience in doing anything.

My 22-year old university students don't even know how to find a job although the majority of them have part-time jobs! I found this out when I asked them where they were going to look for work. The majority seem to believe their parents, some friend or the univesity will "help" them...

This is how they grow up - ingesting data, never reproducing them in a meaningful context. Learning by heart but never applying anything.
That's why we can't expect them to be naturally disciplined. They don't take lessons seriously enough because even their own teachers don't give a hoot about their subjects or about the future of these students. There always is a special relationshikp between teachers and students - one characterised by too much intimacy, amity, paternalism; students can count on their teachers to "help" them pass exams even if they are not intellectually up to them!

My students are all rather sweet, in a childish way, rather naive, innocent; but this doesn't mean they are not capable of treachery, cheating, backstabbing.

My university never instructed me on how to monitor my students' attendance; I instituted the rollcalls from the beginning (having learnt this method from an American teacher many years ago).
The fact that my university didn't inform us FTs about this duty shows rather eloquently that they don't take us too seriously either.
But I found out that if I asked my students to come with VALID EZXCUSES FOR THEIR ABSENCES, they find ways and means to obtain such valid excuses: they write one, have it signed by another teacher and stamped by an officer of the administration.
In other words; Chinese teachers do check on who is present, and if someone is absent they must have a valid reason too.
If they don't have one, they get marked as absent with no excuse.

[kev7161]

. . . no, I think it's pretty much a matter of lazy, spoiled students who know they can get away with just about anything due to the fact that mommy and daddy have the money. I'm glad that a MAJORITY of my students don't seem to have that attitude!

[Madmaxola]

I agree Kev.
It's my firm belief that


A) The students have abosuletly no experience with independent self discpline. They are spoiled and childish, and that's why they seem like they are 14 when they are often in fact 24. All the reasons have already been mentioned, but it's true.

B) Students like to be treated as independent people, even though it's new to them. This means they are responsible for their actions, this means you don't take crap from them just like in the real world. I think they know this and they appreciate it once you implement it in your class (although maybe slightly subconsciously).

[kev7161]

I've a little more to say on this topic (sorry - - but, hey, it is my thread after all!).

The meeting I was "promised" never materialized (see? I told you I was skeptical). However, I had yet another meeting with my director who tried to placate me, but the underlying theme was that all students must stay in the class at all times regardless of their behavior (or misbehavior as it were) - - - which I still disagree with.

I went to talk with my FAO to arrange a meeting with the principal over this issue. My stance is that our department's director is falling asleep at his job.

My job as a foreign english teacher (I feel) is that I show up to class each and every day, on time and well-prepared with a decent English lesson. If I can't make it due to illness or some such thing, then it is my responsibility to make sure I let the powers-that-be know ahead of time so they can deal with the situation. I should be professionally dressed and have all teaching materials prepared. My classroom should be neat and organized and be a learning-friendly environment. My goals are to teach my students new words, new phrases, how to use them properly in a sentence, how to PRONOUNCE them properly, a few grammar rules, and engage them in some interesting and educational English-based activities. Obviously, it is my job to try and keep some sort of order and discipline in the classroom as well (see "learning-friendly environment).

My job is NOT to be a constant disciplinarian nor should I have to constantly police the students. My problem is not these handful of bad students. My problem is how can I make sure that a MAJORITY of students in my class are learning and understanding what I am trying to teach them. Of course I tell a student who is talking and disrupting a lesson to please be quiet (and I do say please and thank you quite frequently in my classroom). I tell this student 2 or 3 or 4 times. If he still insists on interrupting the lesson after this, then it is time for him to leave. He is no longer my problem. He is now the school's problem and it is time for the director to step in and do his job. What that entails, I have no idea. Discipline the student in some way? Call the parents? Get principal intervention?

If a student doesn't show up for class, I've made it clear that he must get a written excuse from a head teacher (and then translated) to come back to class. The director knows this, the headteachers know this, and all of my students know this. It is not my problem if a student does not return with a note and then disappears from my class for a month. Again, who is monitoring and policing these students? Why has the school not instigated some sort of attendance recording procedure to insure these things don't happen? These are not my problems.

Yet I am told that every student must come to class as their parents have paid money and they would not understand why their child is not allowed to come back to class. (Never mind that the school should be in constant communication with these parents when problems do arise) My stance is that the other, GOOD, students' parents have also paid an equal amount of money for their child to receive a decent education and they can't get that when I, the teacher, am constantly fighting these inane little battles with the students who don't care to learn and aren't mature enough to know to keep their chatty little mouths shut! (of course, I don't word it quite that way, I just wanted to paint you a picture)

Now, if I was the lone teacher with these problems, then I might just swallow it and let chaos reign. However, not only do many of the FTs at this school deal with similar situations every day, but so do the Chinese teachers! The problem is that the Chinese teachers will talk to me all day (those that speak English) about how frustrated they are, but they don't dare say a word to the authorities in our school because they know they will lose their jobs in a heartbeat.

The director has threatened to penalize my pay should I continue to keep students out of my class. I have told my FAO that he cannot do this as he (the director) has never once set foot into my classroom to evaluate my job performance. My salary is based on the responsibilities I listed above. Until I start failing at those responsibilities, then the director is just blowing smoke. But, the thing is, it seems IMPOSSIBLE for the school to organize a meeting that would include the principal, the director, my foreign affairs supervisor, the head teachers, and myself to iron out these problems. It also seems the school doesn't want to gather these miscreant students together in my presence and give them a good tongue-lashing. The school simply has no controls or checks and balances in place.

So, maybe I'm investing too much energy in this. In a few months it will all be water under the bridge. But I don't want to quit this job. I'm not ready to head back to the USA (both mentally and financially). I certainly don't want to be fired from this job (and, truthfully, I don't see that happening . . . yet), but I don't want these smarmy little 'punks' to walk all over me. Most of my students love me (or at least like me) and seem to get something out of my lessons. Test scores are up this year over last and most seem to be taking the responsibility of participating in class activities. I'm also trying to emphasize these positives to my superiors.

But these 30 or so students are like a cancer and it just eats away at all the good things I enjoy about this job. Sorry for the long rant, just had to get it out.