Job Discussion Forums

[kev7161]

Dear Kev7161 -
Your point about ending a sentence with a preposition...is what? You seem to think there is a rule? Please elucidate, and explain the origins of this rule and the justification, so that we may be guided. Thanks so very much. Also, while you're at it, please explain the rule about split infinitives and where these rules came from (oh, hell, I dropped a preposition, damn!). It would be ever so helpful.
We peasants would be very grateful. Thanks.

Oh, geez, Carnac . . . get a life! Ending sentences or questions in prepositions is what I learned throughout my academic career. I don't know the origins of the "rule" and I don't care. In the USA, this is proper English. I don't know about England, Canada, Australia, or even Oman . . . and I don't care. If your education didn't cover proper English grammar rules, then that is your problem, not mine. Go back to college.

[AsiaTraveller]

Kev....

He's just pulling your leg because your reasoning is that of such an innocent. And because you're an unwitting cog in the wheel of this mistakenly perpetuated 'rule'.

Your statement "In the USA, this is proper English" is actually false--unless you define mainstream grammar handbooks and usage reference manuals as 'improper'.

"That's what I learned throughout my academic career" doesn't really cut it anymore, especially among other language teachers.

[senor boogie woogie]

Hola!

China is easy to teach in, plus one can get as many hours that they want if they apply themselves. Pay is $12 USD and up. There are many people in the USA who would accept 12 bucks an hour happily. I will offer that if you want to make more money, go to Korea, Japan or the Middle East. I lived in Korea. Korea by and large s u c k e d. Cold, rude people, absolutely little monsters as children, got my ass worked off with little or no support from other staff members, spying on myself and my classes by Korean teachers and staff. However, the private classes paid 30 USD an hour and were wonderful. Japan? The more I hear about it, the less I want to live there. I used to want to go there for 6 months to a year, but then I saw the prices for everyday items, and the general mindset of some of the locals kind of scared me off.

The American school system is a gulag of nonsense. Education should be voluntary, not compulsory. Schools should have the right to keep out those students who are violent, or steal from teachers or staff. That school in Camden cannot legally kick out the person who committed the assault because education is his "right" when in actuality it is a privilidge. But the school system can go after and arrest a child and his loving guardian for cutting school, because he is afraid to go to a place with a prison mentality, filled with thugs who cannot be thrown out.

Senor

[kev7161]

From: http://grammar.englishclub.com/prepositions-rule.htm

English Preposition Rule

There is one very simple rule about prepositions. And, unlike most rules, this rule has no exceptions.

Rule
A preposition is followed by a "noun". It is never followed by a verb.

By "noun" we include:

* noun (dog, money, love)
* proper noun (name) (Bangkok, Mary)
* pronoun (you, him, us)
* noun group (my first job)
* gerund (swimming)

A preposition cannot be followed by a verb. If we want to follow a preposition by a verb, we must use the "-ing" form which is really a gerund or verb in noun form.

From: http://www-writing.berkeley.edu/wab/1-1-grammar.htm

You must never end a sentence with a preposition. If it's truly a preposition, the rule has some validity. But most of those sentences don't end with prepositions, but end with "fused" or two-word verbs. Then what we called a preposition is now known as an adverbial particle. "He threw up" is just fine, because the verb is "threw up," not "threw" plus a preposition. "Is this something with which you can put up?" Ugh. The verb is "to put up with" so why not just say, "Is this something you can put up with?" It's fine.

Actually, as I said in my first post, I was just "poking fun". But some people don't get . . . humor? sarcasm? tongue-in-cheek? I'm sure there are some writers and English experts who will go with one side of the preposition-at-the-end-of-the-sentence argument, while others will side with the opposite. I'm not an innocent, by the way. I'm 43 years old (*sigh*) and have won major writing awards in my "academic career", most notably with USA Today's Academic All-Stars (please, hold your applause and no autugraphs today). Is my grammar perfect? By no means, but I do enjoy writing and reading and trying to make sure my posts here are as accurate as possible, while also throwing in my own writing styles. Believe me, I'm not trying to turn into another Ludwig (or whatever name he goes by these days)!

We now resume our regularly scheduled thread . . .

[Luder]

Who says a preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with? Sorry! Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa! Who says a preposition isn't a good thing with which to end a sentence?

[poro]

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[kev7161]

Uh, posters, I didn't write the bold copy. I copied and pasted from those websites I put just above the copy. I was just giving you some example of "rules". All of us will choose our own rules when it comes to grammar (and there are a lot from which to choose!).

I remember way back in Junior High when an English teacher of mine told me that you can certainly use the words "get" and "got" in a sentence, but it just sounded better to find other choices. "How much money do you have?" as opposed to "You got any money?" (or something along those lines). I went to a Junior College before attending a university and I had a wonderful English composition teacher (and we still stay in touch to this day). She lectured one day on the difference between high English and low English. She said, "Anyone can speak common, low English, but a truly educated person can think of better word choices and elevate his patterns of speech." (paraphrased) This is one reason why I try not to curse too much. Anyone can use the word "f*cking!" as an adjective . . . I choose to be a bit more creative.

No, of course I don't walk around with my nose stuck in the air and talk in a snobbish sort of way. I speak "low" English just like most everyone here. I certainly don't bother trying to teach my Chinese students the difference between the two levels as well. I'm happy if they can put together a coherent sentence or two. But the English language is complex and, quite frankly, I can be equally frustrated or fascinated by it. I learned all my life not to end sentences with a preposition and I choose to live by that rule the best I can. However, my spoken English is quite often different from my written English. When I write English, I can stop and think about different ways of expressing myself. I don't always have that luxury when I speak. In my opinion, a language is similar to other types of art. You can paint by the numbers or you can be your own, creative self.

Sorry, OP, this kinda took a life of its own, didn't it?

[Sinobear]

Parva leves capiunt anima


Back to the regularly scheduled thread (Kevin, lay off my lines! You know better than to just try and interject with levity here!)

[Luder]

Whether it's of the all-star sort or not, any writing that sticks pedantically to outdated and unrealistic rules isn't, it seems to me, worth the paper it's printed on. Ooops! On which it's printed.

[David Bowles]

Oh, I geddit... he says China has the highest hours, worst food, worst living conditions and sucks generally... but his picture is of that Iraqi information guy. Famous for being not so much economical with the truth as prodigal with the untruths. Funny how many unknown layers of irony people work on here... Do I get a prize?

Wasn't it Churchill who, on being told about preposition grammar, replied 'This is a nonsense up with which I shall not put'?

[Stephen Jones]

---" I'm thinking of Pinker's famous example of, 'Daddy, what did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to out of up for?'"----

Presumably the book was Pinker's own ? :}

Actyally you have five words at the end that can function as prepositions but they are not all functioning as prepositions here. 'up' is definitely an adverb, and we could argue about 'out' (is it half of a compound preposition?)

The sentence is of course horrible. If you move back 'up' either to after bring or after book the sentence improves marginally, but not much.

But then again, possibly the great man's daughter does speak like this. Other people's daughters would have dropped the prepositions down their petticoat well before the end of the sentence.

Incidentally, I think the original comment was intended to be humorous.

[poro]

[kev7161]

Common sense points such as these show 'Kev the Rev' to be something of a misinformed and ill-guided embarrassment.

I'm not embarrassed, are you? Are you mortified or even downright horrified that I'm walking around this planet NOT ending my sentences in prepositions? Gee, sorry.

[texastmblwd69]