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carnac · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:21 am Post subject: The Subjunctive?

Dear Colleagues:
"If I were a grammarian..." "If I was a grammarian..."
Student texts these days seem to say that the two are equivalent. Do you believe that both are equally correct? Why?
I firmly believe that language evolves and cannot be static without fear of extinction. Movements to fossilize language are invariably unsuccessful. Many English users now employ the Past Simple rather than the Subjunctive for the second conditional. (If I was rich, I'd buy a Hummer!) The subjunctive seems to be a disappearing mood.
My real questions:
1. Do you think "If I was..." sounds ok or poorly-educated?
2. Which way do you teach it?
3. Do you bother to explain the two in this usage, and the differences?

As referential material, there is this website as a refresher:

http://grammar.englishclub.com/verbs-subjunctive.htm

What do you think? Should we drop the subjunctive from our teaching, or perhaps reserve it for advanced classes?

I look forward to your comments!
Thanks very much.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

"If I were you..." is a very common phrase used by native speakers. it should be taught for, at least, recognition purposes

basiltherat · Joined: 04 Oct 2003 Posts: 952

I used to teach the subjunctive a lot while training guys in business and technical report writing. They found it very useful.

e.g. I recommend that the company review its recruitment procedure.

Other than for formal writing, I don't believe it's of much benefit to students/trainees, even those at higher levels unless they are particularly required to use/hear/read it.
regards
basil

Ben Round de Bloc · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1946

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

"If I were you? If I were a rich man" appears to have become fossilized,even among speakers who regularlly use was for the first and third person singular of the subjunctive.

At the appropriate levels you want to teach it for recognition purposes. The Present Subjunctive is also much more common in America than in the UK, where it more or less is limited to "God Save/ Long Live the Queen".

Chris_Crossley

canuck · Joined: 11 May 2003 Posts: 1921 Location: Japan

There are different cases where "If I was" is acceptable and is the correct answer rather than "If I were" It isn't always "If I were"

That said, it's late, and I don't feel like searching for it, however it is covered in the Nitty Gritty Grammar book.

In daily conversation, I feel both or acceptable and interchangeable. I'm no grammarian either!

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

I suggest he's fired is perfectly correct in British English. The Americans are more likely to use 'be', since they are more likely to use the present subjunctive in general.

carnac · Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject:

"I suggest he's fired is perfectly correct in British English. "
Not certain I agree...I suggest (that) he -is- fired ...would be an after-the-fact statement. "I suggest (that) he -should be- (or) -be- fired would be more suggestive. In this case,I see no way to avoid the subjunctive.
As in:
(subordinate) "Sir, I suggest you change your views!"
(boss) "And I suggest you are fired!",already a fait accomli, not a conditional.
Let's take the same thing, in a possibility sort of way:
"If he was fired, the company would be better."
"If he were fired, the company would be beter."
Of the two, which do you prefer,and why?
The point of my question is the usage of the subjunctive: is it dead or not, except in fossilized collocations?

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

It's critically necessary to teach the subjunctive when you are preparing folks to take an exam such as the TOEFL. The grammar section always has subjunctive errors that must be identified.

carnac · Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:46 am Post subject:

From another thread in the General Discussions area, posted by "Dr.J": "As for languages, if it wasn't English, it would be another language. "
Do you think this usage is ok, or not ok? Which usage do YOU use in everyday speech? Passing TOEFL exams is one thing; communicative English is another. I'm asking both the prescriptivists and the descriptivists. There was someone on yet another thread who was incensed about ending sentences with prepositions. (And, I imagine, split infinitives). Do we teach grammatical neologisms (relatively "neo"), or do we insist on an older form and make the students aware of newer, different forms and possibly confuse them?
So:
Do you teach "if I were..." and then in the real world outside the classroom say "If I was..." to other English speakers?
Do you not bother teaching "If I were..." unless the students have to pass an exam?
Why am I asking? I'm trying to assess where we are going as teachers of English, the question always being "which English?"
Thanks again, very much.

foss · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 55

I always stress that "if I were...." is considered to be more correct and educated but a good number of native speakers use the indicative. Try putting "if i was" and "if i were" in your search engine - see how people use both in the same sentence.

So, I'd say that you should teach both forms. Doesn't take any effort to grasp the difference and, as a student, it's quite motivating to learn things that natives are unaware of.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

With Chinese students of English, zero chances that you will ever have to deal with the subjunctive.

When I say "I suggest he come here..." I am using the subjunctive; my students, though, will say the exact same sentence, thinking "he come here..." is the present tense.

Then again, I have been noticing of late that English-language publications often confuse the present tense and subjunctive as well wehn using "...suggest..."

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

Carnac:

I am more than acutely aware that there is a difference between preparing students for exams such as the TOEFL and helping them to communicate at a basic level in the language. In this instance I was pointing out that one cannot prepare students for those exams WITHOUT teaching the subjunctive--which to my mind makes your question rather academic.

As I teach folks whose first language is Spanish, the subjunctive is not an optional part of the programs I design and implement in Mexico. (The subjunctive is used MUCH more frequently in Spanish than in English, and like in English, is an area of many errors in usage by native speakers.)

My own habits? It would never cross my mind to say "If he was fired"--I use "If he were...."

I have been visiting the US the past two weeks, and I feel surrounded on all sides by grammar-fracturers. However, that does not convince me that I should teach a degenerated form of the language.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

---"I have been visiting the US the past two weeks, and I feel surrounded on all sides by grammar-fracturers. However, that does not convince me that I should teach a degenerated form of the language."----

I suggest you let it convince you to buy an elementary book on socio-linguistics where such terms as "a degenerate form of the language" are thoroughly put to rest.

I also fail to see why having a subjunctive in Spanish makes it necessary to put it in a course in English, though the fact it would make it easier to expalin might make it more feasible.. I smell a logical fallacy somewhere.

There is a definite difference in the use of the subjunctive between British and American English. Some of that may be the result of American prescriptive grammar.

To answer the original question apart from "if I were you" I would only teach the subjunctive for recognition purposes, unless I was traiining students who were going to be taking American official exams, or likely to be writing for American journals.