Job Discussion Forums

[crstarlette]

Are there contries that would not hire someone with a MA if they didn't have a CELTA? In essence, is a CELTA more important than an MA? No matter what I will be finishing the MA I am working on; I am just trying to get a clue about how important the CELTA is.

[moonraven]

It depends on who is doing the hiring. When I hire folks, for example, I ask for an MA. People who really don't know anything think hiring a CELTA-qualified person means they're getting someone who knows how to teach. I have absolutely not found that to be the case

[moonraven]

It depends on who is doing the hiring. When I hire folks, for example, I ask for an MA. People who really don't know anything think hiring a CELTA-qualified person means they're getting someone who knows how to teach. I have absolutely not found that to be the case

[skinhead]

What's more important qualifications or experience? If it's qualifications, then whatever is highest. If it's experience, then a good teacher's track record is worth an MA, whether they've got a CELTA or not. As far as countries go, I've only got Korea and Japan to talk about. Korea doesn't even need a CELTA for many common English college jobs, so a degree in anything is all you need, but at least a CELTA for schools and unis. Japan wants an MA for most academic jobs, but will accept a CELTA only in certain situations, such as some private colleges.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]

CELTA is a superior teacher training course for the classroom teacher.

I learned a lot more about how to teach in CELTA than in my M.A. program.

The problem with most M.A. TESOL / Applied Linguistics programs is that they are still too theoretical and many still do not offer a supervised training practicum.

I learned more about teaching and the mistakes I was making in 1 week of CELTA than I did in 1 year of the M.A. program.

Contrary to Moonrave, I would hire a CELTA holder over an M.A. TESOL / Applied Linguistics holder if I had to chose between the two.

In fact, our CELTA trainers told us that it's normally the M.A. TESOL trainees that come to CELTA who have the most problems in the course - for a variety of reasons.

[moonraven]

Hmmm. In all my classroom observations of teachers I have yet to observe a CELTA-qualified person give what I would consider to be a complete class.

[carnac]

Opinion: there are so many variables that it's difficult to make a generalization.
I've seen both MAs and Celtas who were great teachers and those who were terrible.
Who gets hired over whom: I think it depends on the geographic area and the proposed level of study. Universities, being run by academics, go for academic degrees, it seems to me. Look at the "help wanted" ads.
Which program turns out better teachers? Celta can be said to give more intensive experience than many Master's programs, but again, not all Master's programs are the same. In my own experience getting the Master's, we not only had tons of theory, we actually taught and were observed/critiqued on a regular basis. But, this was a MSc/TESOL, not an MA, so maybe it was different.
One criterion one might look at is: does the Master's program also allow a certification option? If so, the job candidate probably has been given experience as well as theoretical training and has been assessed in both areas.
I have observed that many newer Celta/BA teachers are lacking in fundamentals such as a sound understanding of grammar or a tendency to use colloquial speech from their native areas while teaching. These things get learned eventually, since the best way to really learn something is to teach it. Fledgling MA teachers usually know the grammar, but have some difficulty getting it over to the students, lacking the experience to transfer what's inside their heads to the students. (Another small problem is with the superiority complex of recent MA graduates)
As always, it's the individual prospective teacher: did the person care enough, before actually doing the job, to pay attention in class, ask questions, and open books and study things that weren't required reading for the course?
In my own hiring, I lean towards the Master's. Why? I find it easier to give teaching pointers to a new teacher who has a sound knowledge of what they are teaching and why, than to give off-time lessons to a teacher on the fundamentals of what they are going to teach.
The bottom line: do you know your subjectt and can you make the students understand and assimilate in a form available six months later?
I give the most points to a job candidate based on knowledge and fluency in another language. I would hire a bilingual Celta over a monolingual Master's anytime. And, vice-sort-of-versa. This said, when I make this decision, I know I might be making a mistake, but the reasoning is, I believe, valid. Your Master's programs will undoubtedly have covered the reasoning.
A teacher must be so many things that go beyond anything taught in a classroom. I think that classes for prospective teachers shoud include an acting class and a drawing class. But, how do you teach "Charisma 101"?
I think both Celta and Master's programs should address these aspects of ESL/EFL.
Whew, long rant, sorry, what do you think?
(and before all the Celta/MA folks jump on me, please note that my remarks were not intended to be generalized and referred to "newer" and/or "fledgling" non-experienced teachers of both ilk, ok?)

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Gordon]

BRDB,
I think many problems that experienced teachers or masters educated teachers have when doing the CELTA is that they may not believe the CELTA trainers or do what they are supposed to do. I think they could have a chip on their shoulders as many other CELTA trainees have no experience and some don't even have degrees.

When I did my CELTA many years ago, I had the most teaching experience of all the other trainees and I made a deal with myself that I would listen to the trainers and not argue, especially of any critiques. I got a lot out of my CELTA course because of that. The person with the most education in the course was the only one who failed. I see where Rice Paddy is coming from.

[Stephen Jones]

[once again]

Have you done a CELTA course Stephen?

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[moonraven]

I tend to agree with Ben on this, but also realize that generalizing can be difficult.

My situation is the following: I have an essentially academic preparation, given that I received a terminal degree in English in 1972, and taught off and on at the university level in the US since 1968. However, I also began teaching English as a language in 1968--to elderly Chinese in San Francisco--and received training equivalent to the CELTA through a nationally represented language school in Mexico 10 years ago (before I have a pack of yappers giving me grief about that, let me say that I trained a number of teachers for that same organization and have been offered jobs as a CELTA trainer from programs all over the world.) I have also trained folks at levels from university to elementary school who teach subjects unrelated to language learning (economics, math, physics, art, etc.) I have found all of my learning experiences to be very helpful, and that training teachers has made me a better teacher.

The problem I have with folks who do not have at least an MA in English (does not have to be TESOL) is that the defensiveness Ben alluded to seems to prevent them from opening themselves sufficiently to learn and to teach effectively. I am sure there are probably a fair number of exceptions--I have had one or two working for me at different times--but since this thread is based on generalizations, I am afraid I have to say that almost all the CELTA folks I have either hired or worked with have nearly zero interest in being educators--the CELTA was a cheap and fast way for them to gain access to subsidized travel. Zero interest leads to a low level of competence in the classroom, and egocentricity as a motivator does not make for inspiring teachers.

I find that usually it's the CELTA folks who try to make themselves feel better by attacking folks like myself who are academically well-prepared and have very extensive experience as teachers and trainers of teachers--which tells me that they feel very insecure about their skills, and are probably not going to take advantage of life's learning opportunities. Sad.

[Ben Round de Bloc]

I think one of the problems, if indeed it is a problem rather than just a difference in perspective, is where the people involved are coming from. My background is in education, so when I'm in the role of EFL teacher, I still see myself as an educator first. When I'm on the other side of the desk, so to speak, taking TEFL continuing education courses, for example, I still see things from an educator's perspective. If I were taking the CELTA course, I'm sure I'd still have my educator's perspective.

As Gordon wrote, "I think many problems that experienced teachers or masters educated teachers have when doing the CELTA is that they may not believe the CELTA trainers or do what they are supposed to do." I agree with what Gordon wrote more or less (see my previous post,) but it really goes against my grain as an educator that students (be they high school grads or MA holders) should be expected to believe their trainers and do what they're supposed to do. To me that is not education. And, again, this may all go back to the difference between educating and training; I don't know. If I were teaching a course, from my perspective as an educator (learning facilitator,) I wouldn't feel intimidated by students who had different experiences from my own or more knowledge in some areas than I had or had a higher university degree than mine. With all those resources and experiences to draw from and learn from right there in the classroom, I would count my blessings and take advantage of the opportunity.

[Rice Paddy Daddy]