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Ownership of your Alien Resident Certificate (ARC)
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TaoyuanSteve



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As a side not to Mark's comment on civility: Dave's VS Forumosa; I'd have to agree that there isn't any marked difference. Some threads can seem that way. Forumosa is frequented by many long term expats, many of whom know each other. However, I've seen some rather nasty flames on that board...much nastier than what I've seen here. I'd say that pretty much balances out the difference. I will say this, though, since forumosa is populated by many long-term expats, it is much harder for those with limited experience -- or those who don't even live here-- to dominate the discussions or otherwise try to tell residents about the country in which they live. I think the presence of those with limited experience, but fail to see it and call themselves experts, creates a lot of the discord here.
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TaoyuanSteve



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
jason_seeburn wrote:
TaoyuanSteve wrote:
Jason, it is clear you weren't aware of what was going on around you when you were here. Two years after your departure, you aren't any more aware. If your friends wanted to leave their jobs, there was a process they could have followed, even then. If nothing else, they could have simply took a visa trip and started over.

God, this current resident VS non-resident, noobie nonsense is getting tired.


So are you now saying that I am right? You can't just quit and move to another school and take your ARC with you? You have to do a visa run and start over? Get a new ARC? What happens to the old ARC that you "owned"? Does the government take it back then? Sounds just like the old Taiwan I remember. Slightly better than the situation in Korea, but not much better.


MOD EDIT No, I'm not saying you're right. I said there has always been an option, before and now, if you don't like your job. If nothing else, your friends could simply have taken a visa trip, if they REALLY wanted out. That was refering to the old system. New system is different. Get it? No? Not surprised, really.

You can quit and take your ARC with you. Get a new job, get them to take over sponsorship, quit your old one and leave. Your current employer is kept out of the loop while the take-over occurs. Simple. MOD EDIT
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Fortigurn



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
jason_seeburn wrote:
Next time you want to quit and transfer schools, try just taking your ARC to the other school and starting work there, without getting your old school's permission. Then post a nice little message so we all know what happened.


Here's a message for you:

Quote:
On January 15th, 2004 the national Council of Labor Affairs assumed responsibility for issuing foreign teacher's work permits from local city and county Departments of Education. The resulting transfer has changed the landscape for foreign teachers working in Taiwan.

[...]

The Council of Labor Affairs interprets the Employment Services Act as allowing foreign teachers to be hired by more than one school without requiring permission of their current employer.

They will issue all second (and even third) full-time applications without regard to your first school.

[...]

The next issue is leaving your first job. The influence of the Council of Labor Affairs is felt there as well: your old school cannot not affect the existence of your new Work Permit in any way.


Source.

As you can see, this new legislation has been in force for about 10 months now. It's hardly a recent development. People who live over here are aware of it.

People who do not live over here do not seem to be aware of it.
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Rice Paddy Daddy



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
3)You can switch jobs and your school can't stop you. The new procedure lets you do so without your old school even knowing it.


Listen, folks.

Foreigners cannot "Transfer" their ARC.

Your ARC is ammended by the Foreign Affairs Police if you find a new employer to work for within 14 days of quitting your old job.

You also have to produce the new contract offered to you by the new school when you go in to see the police.

Let me outline the process for you:

1. Quit job
2. Old school notifies The Executive Yuan (The Council of Labour Affairs) to cancel the old work permit.
3. The Executive Yuan then contacts the Foreign Affairs Police to advise of your employment status.
4. The Foreign Affairs Police then contact you to advise you of the deadline to leave Taiwan (14 days from being contacted by the police -not from the date you quit your job) unless you find a new job.
5. You find a new school who wants to hire you.
6. You get a new contract from the school.
7. New School sends Executive Yuan new contract to apply for your new work permit.
8. Executive Yuan grants a new work permit.
9. You go to see the Foreign Affairs Police with ARC, New Contract and New Work Permit and passport.
10. Police "Ammend" ARC and look at the new contract, new work permit and your passport.

"Transfer" is a misnomer. A new work permit is issued and you keep your original ARC which is simply ammended by having one of the police officers write on the back of it to reflect the changes in your employment status.
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markholmes



Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for advertising the post I started on Forumosa Steve.

As yet, with 3000 regular, long term, experienced posters on Forumosa, nobody has come forward to say they have managed to add a second school to their ARC. If they do, thats cool. I just want to clarify what the law says against what actually happens in reality.

Actually I think Seeburn is misinformed and his info is out of date (although I stand by the bits I agreed with in an earlier post). I was aware of the new legislation and do manage to keep myself informed in spite of not being in the trenches, as it were. Most people's source for this kind of info in Taiwan is the internet, which not surprisingly is the same internet we use in Canada.

My main and basically only point was and is that a teacher does not have total control over their circumstances because a school has the ability to pull the rug from under you by getting your work permit cancelled. So, do you own your ARC/work permit? Well the answer has to be no. You may have the physical card in your wallet (yes, which is where it should be), but you do not have control because it, or paperwork associated with it can be cancelled by individuals other than yourself.

I'm just waiting for someone to say they have actually managed to do what the legislation says you can do (ie. add a second school).

Right, now I'm really finished.
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wombat



Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rice Paddy Daddy wrote:
Foreigners cannot "Transfer" their ARC.


Rice Paddy Daddy wrote:
A new work permit is issued and you keep your original ARC which is simply ammended by having one of the police officers write on the back of it to reflect the changes in your employment status.


I finally get what RicePaddy is talking about. It seems that he is splitting hairs, but I guess that he is correct in what he says.

I think what RicePaddy is saying is that as the employer really has no control over the ARC then it is not really being transferred into their name. Sure their name is added to the back, but this does not affect the actual ARC at all. It is still the original ARC, and it is still in your name. It is your ARC and not the schools and therefore the ARC can't really be transferred to another school as the ownership remains yours.

The fact remains though that everyone who lives here, both foreigners and the relevant authorities, refer to the changing of an existing ARC to reflect a new employer as 'an ARC transfer'. For the sake of placating RicePaddy I am willing to agree that it is not technically a transfer between schools, but I will still always refer to this process as transferring an ARC as this has become the accepted term.

The above only strengthens the argument that Seeburn was wrong and that the ARC is in fact yours - not the schools.

I can't understand what all the confusion and argument is about.

You the foreigner own your ARC for all practical intents and purposes. It must go with you wherever you go - acting as an ID card. It goes with you even if you change employers, and the new employers details are added to the back. How can anyone suggest that it isn't yours?

Let's go back to Seeburns initial comments. He said that the school held his ARC and that this was just fine as he had no right to the possesion of it. He was wrong. That's it. All of this other stuff is just complicating the issue.
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