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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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 Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| As a side not to Mark's comment on civility: Dave's VS Forumosa; I'd have to agree that there isn't any marked difference. Some threads can seem that way. Forumosa is frequented by many long term expats, many of whom know each other. However, I've seen some rather nasty flames on that board...much nastier than what I've seen here. I'd say that pretty much balances out the difference. I will say this, though, since forumosa is populated by many long-term expats, it is much harder for those with limited experience -- or those who don't even live here-- to dominate the discussions or otherwise try to tell residents about the country in which they live. I think the presence of those with limited experience, but fail to see it and call themselves experts, creates a lot of the discord here. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
Jason, it is clear you weren't aware of what was going on around you when you were here. Two years after your departure, you aren't any more aware. If your friends wanted to leave their jobs, there was a process they could have followed, even then. If nothing else, they could have simply took a visa trip and started over.
God, this current resident VS non-resident, noobie nonsense is getting tired. |
So are you now saying that I am right? You can't just quit and move to another school and take your ARC with you? You have to do a visa run and start over? Get a new ARC? What happens to the old ARC that you "owned"? Does the government take it back then? Sounds just like the old Taiwan I remember. Slightly better than the situation in Korea, but not much better. |
MOD EDIT No, I'm not saying you're right. I said there has always been an option, before and now, if you don't like your job. If nothing else, your friends could simply have taken a visa trip, if they REALLY wanted out. That was refering to the old system. New system is different. Get it? No? Not surprised, really.
You can quit and take your ARC with you. Get a new job, get them to take over sponsorship, quit your old one and leave. Your current employer is kept out of the loop while the take-over occurs. Simple. MOD EDIT |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Next time you want to quit and transfer schools, try just taking your ARC to the other school and starting work there, without getting your old school's permission. Then post a nice little message so we all know what happened. |
Here's a message for you:
| Quote: |
On January 15th, 2004 the national Council of Labor Affairs assumed responsibility for issuing foreign teacher's work permits from local city and county Departments of Education. The resulting transfer has changed the landscape for foreign teachers working in Taiwan.
[...]
The Council of Labor Affairs interprets the Employment Services Act as allowing foreign teachers to be hired by more than one school without requiring permission of their current employer.
They will issue all second (and even third) full-time applications without regard to your first school.
[...]
The next issue is leaving your first job. The influence of the Council of Labor Affairs is felt there as well: your old school cannot not affect the existence of your new Work Permit in any way. |
Source.
As you can see, this new legislation has been in force for about 10 months now. It's hardly a recent development. People who live over here are aware of it.
People who do not live over here do not seem to be aware of it. |
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Rice Paddy Daddy
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 3)You can switch jobs and your school can't stop you. The new procedure lets you do so without your old school even knowing it. |
Listen, folks.
Foreigners cannot "Transfer" their ARC.
Your ARC is ammended by the Foreign Affairs Police if you find a new employer to work for within 14 days of quitting your old job.
You also have to produce the new contract offered to you by the new school when you go in to see the police.
Let me outline the process for you:
1. Quit job
2. Old school notifies The Executive Yuan (The Council of Labour Affairs) to cancel the old work permit.
3. The Executive Yuan then contacts the Foreign Affairs Police to advise of your employment status.
4. The Foreign Affairs Police then contact you to advise you of the deadline to leave Taiwan (14 days from being contacted by the police -not from the date you quit your job) unless you find a new job.
5. You find a new school who wants to hire you.
6. You get a new contract from the school.
7. New School sends Executive Yuan new contract to apply for your new work permit.
8. Executive Yuan grants a new work permit.
9. You go to see the Foreign Affairs Police with ARC, New Contract and New Work Permit and passport.
10. Police "Ammend" ARC and look at the new contract, new work permit and your passport.
"Transfer" is a misnomer. A new work permit is issued and you keep your original ARC which is simply ammended by having one of the police officers write on the back of it to reflect the changes in your employment status. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for advertising the post I started on Forumosa Steve.
As yet, with 3000 regular, long term, experienced posters on Forumosa, nobody has come forward to say they have managed to add a second school to their ARC. If they do, thats cool. I just want to clarify what the law says against what actually happens in reality.
Actually I think Seeburn is misinformed and his info is out of date (although I stand by the bits I agreed with in an earlier post). I was aware of the new legislation and do manage to keep myself informed in spite of not being in the trenches, as it were. Most people's source for this kind of info in Taiwan is the internet, which not surprisingly is the same internet we use in Canada.
My main and basically only point was and is that a teacher does not have total control over their circumstances because a school has the ability to pull the rug from under you by getting your work permit cancelled. So, do you own your ARC/work permit? Well the answer has to be no. You may have the physical card in your wallet (yes, which is where it should be), but you do not have control because it, or paperwork associated with it can be cancelled by individuals other than yourself.
I'm just waiting for someone to say they have actually managed to do what the legislation says you can do (ie. add a second school).
Right, now I'm really finished. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
| Foreigners cannot "Transfer" their ARC. |
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
| A new work permit is issued and you keep your original ARC which is simply ammended by having one of the police officers write on the back of it to reflect the changes in your employment status. |
I finally get what RicePaddy is talking about. It seems that he is splitting hairs, but I guess that he is correct in what he says.
I think what RicePaddy is saying is that as the employer really has no control over the ARC then it is not really being transferred into their name. Sure their name is added to the back, but this does not affect the actual ARC at all. It is still the original ARC, and it is still in your name. It is your ARC and not the schools and therefore the ARC can't really be transferred to another school as the ownership remains yours.
The fact remains though that everyone who lives here, both foreigners and the relevant authorities, refer to the changing of an existing ARC to reflect a new employer as 'an ARC transfer'. For the sake of placating RicePaddy I am willing to agree that it is not technically a transfer between schools, but I will still always refer to this process as transferring an ARC as this has become the accepted term.
The above only strengthens the argument that Seeburn was wrong and that the ARC is in fact yours - not the schools.
I can't understand what all the confusion and argument is about.
You the foreigner own your ARC for all practical intents and purposes. It must go with you wherever you go - acting as an ID card. It goes with you even if you change employers, and the new employers details are added to the back. How can anyone suggest that it isn't yours?
Let's go back to Seeburns initial comments. He said that the school held his ARC and that this was just fine as he had no right to the possesion of it. He was wrong. That's it. All of this other stuff is just complicating the issue. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| markholmes wrote: |
Thanks for advertising the post I started on Forumosa Steve.
As yet, with 3000 regular, long term, experienced posters on Forumosa, nobody has come forward to say they have managed to add a second school to their ARC. If they do, thats cool. I just want to clarify what the law says against what actually happens in reality.
Actually I think Seeburn is misinformed and his info is out of date (although I stand by the bits I agreed with in an earlier post). I was aware of the new legislation and do manage to keep myself informed in spite of not being in the trenches, as it were. Most people's source for this kind of info in Taiwan is the internet, which not surprisingly is the same internet we use in Canada.
My main and basically only point was and is that a teacher does not have total control over their circumstances because a school has the ability to pull the rug from under you by getting your work permit cancelled. So, do you own your ARC/work permit? Well the answer has to be no. You may have the physical card in your wallet (yes, which is where it should be), but you do not have control because it, or paperwork associated with it can be cancelled by individuals other than yourself.
I'm just waiting for someone to say they have actually managed to do what the legislation says you can do (ie. add a second school).
Right, now I'm really finished. |
My source for this kind of info is not the internet. Unlike you, I live here at this moment. That is the point I'm trying to make. Whether your post on Forumosa gets any responses or not (and I suspect it won't) doesn't matter to me. I'm curious why this matters so much to you in Vancouver and why you want to tell those of us living here the realities of our lives here, as if we don't already know. You cannot stay abreast of life in Taiwan from abroad.
As far as users on Forumosa, you forgot to include me among them.
The main topic of this thread used to be (before all the red herrings) ownership of an ARC. Seeburn claims that it is alright for a school to withold it and give you a photocopy. We disagreed and Wombat posted the regulations on this. Do you agree or disagree with them?
We have also suggested that one of the recent changes in law allows a teacher to change jobs while retaining their ARC. Is there some reason that you don't believe that? Better yet. Is there some reason you even care about this? You don't live here. Nothing we're discussing has any bearing on your life at all. You say you are finished. Good. Time to move on. Get into life where you are and leave Taiwan to those living there.
Once again I notice that the opposition in this thread do not even live here. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Rice Paddy, if you read up a little you will see that I say Transfer is a misnomer as well. In addition to what you say, you can secure a job while still working at the old one, get the paperwork done, then quit job #1. What is happening is another school takes over sponsorship. Really not a big deal and I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| My source for this kind of info is not the internet. |
Most peoples source is the internet, particularly about the new legislation. The information about this issue on Tealit is oft quoted both on this site and other Taiwan sites.
| Quote: |
| Unlike you, I live here at this moment. |
This is the biggest red herring. Yes, maybe you have some insider information that I don't know about, but you're not posting it here (I don't see any revelant information here that I didn't know about).
Strange how you didn't feel the need to bring up my country of abode in all the posts in which we were in agreement, of which there are many.
Frankly why I post here is none of your business.
| Quote: |
| Seeburn claims that it is alright for a school to withold it and give you a photocopy. |
Seeburn is wrong. No two ways about it.
Yes, this post drifted off course. Partly because I and others added other ideas / suggestions. But I believe what I have written falls under the title of this post.
| Quote: |
| We have also suggested that one of the recent changes in law allows a teacher to change jobs while retaining their ARC. Is there some reason that you don't believe that? |
It does appear to be true. In legislation this does appear to be the case. I think I have said that before. This information has been available for a long time.
| Quote: |
| Whether your post on Forumosa gets any responses or not (and I suspect it won't) doesn't matter to me. |
If thats the case why provide a link to it in this post?
I didn't post on Forumosa to prove anyone wrong I posted it to see if anyone would come forward to confirm that the new rules actually work in practice. If it doesn't work in practice, then depsite the legislation it doesn't work at all.
TS, why do you suspect nobody will come forward? Surely if the new rules are working well, somebody amongst those 3000 posters will have gone through this procedure. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
MOD EDIT No, I'm not saying you're right. I said there has always been an option, before and now, if you don't like your job. If nothing else, your friends could simply have taken a visa trip, if they REALLY wanted out. That was refering to the old system. New system is different. Get it? No? Not surprised, really.
You can quit and take your ARC with you. Get a new job, get them to take over sponsorship, quit your old one and leave. Your current employer is kept out of the loop while the take-over occurs. Simple. MOD EDIT |
That's the exact same as it always was. You need a sponsor. I am hesitant to accept your statement that the old employer is completely out of the loop though. Generally an ARC sponsorship requires a contract between the teacher and the school. If you quit, you break this contract. Then it is up to your original school as to what they will do. I haven't been there for a while, but I am really hesitant to take this advice of yours that you can quit without your school's permission, because it is a sponsorship residence certificate and I am pretty sure that if your old school is not pleased with you leaving, they can do something about it. I think you might be wrong there. At any rate, if you end up without a sponsor I believe you have a short time to get out of the country and your ARC isn't worth bird cr*p (which is actually quite valuable in the tropics), so it isn't really yours. I still question your accounts of this new system of bouncing ARC sponsorship. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortigurn wrote: |
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Next time you want to quit and transfer schools, try just taking your ARC to the other school and starting work there, without getting your old school's permission. Then post a nice little message so we all know what happened. |
Here's a message for you:
| Quote: |
On January 15th, 2004 the national Council of Labor Affairs assumed responsibility for issuing foreign teacher's work permits from local city and county Departments of Education. The resulting transfer has changed the landscape for foreign teachers working in Taiwan.
[...]
The Council of Labor Affairs interprets the Employment Services Act as allowing foreign teachers to be hired by more than one school without requiring permission of their current employer.
They will issue all second (and even third) full-time applications without regard to your first school.
[...]
The next issue is leaving your first job. The influence of the Council of Labor Affairs is felt there as well: your old school cannot not affect the existence of your new Work Permit in any way. |
Source.
As you can see, this new legislation has been in force for about 10 months now. It's hardly a recent development. People who live over here are aware of it.
People who do not live over here do not seem to be aware of it. |
They're just interpreting an act. The legislation hasn't been changed. It's just administrative law (a tribunal interpreting its governing statute). A big chain school with some money and some good lawyers could get around that probably. But it may be safe now at smaller schools for as long as this situation lasts. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 3)You can switch jobs and your school can't stop you. The new procedure lets you do so without your old school even knowing it. |
Listen, folks.
Foreigners cannot "Transfer" their ARC.
Your ARC is ammended by the Foreign Affairs Police if you find a new employer to work for within 14 days of quitting your old job.
You also have to produce the new contract offered to you by the new school when you go in to see the police.
Let me outline the process for you:
1. Quit job
2. Old school notifies The Executive Yuan (The Council of Labour Affairs) to cancel the old work permit.
3. The Executive Yuan then contacts the Foreign Affairs Police to advise of your employment status.
4. The Foreign Affairs Police then contact you to advise you of the deadline to leave Taiwan (14 days from being contacted by the police -not from the date you quit your job) unless you find a new job.
5. You find a new school who wants to hire you.
6. You get a new contract from the school.
7. New School sends Executive Yuan new contract to apply for your new work permit.
8. Executive Yuan grants a new work permit.
9. You go to see the Foreign Affairs Police with ARC, New Contract and New Work Permit and passport.
10. Police "Ammend" ARC and look at the new contract, new work permit and your passport.
"Transfer" is a misnomer. A new work permit is issued and you keep your original ARC which is simply ammended by having one of the police officers write on the back of it to reflect the changes in your employment status. |
What happens if the old school neglects (intentionally) to notify the Executive Yuan? |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Seeburn claims that it is alright for a school to withold it and give you a photocopy. |
| Quote: |
| Seeburn is wrong. No two ways about it. |
Alright? when did I say that? I said that the school routinely WILL withold your ARC and give you a copy. Whether anything is alright on that Island is up to the philosophers, not to me. Too much injustice to foreigners. Personally I think the whole ARC system is a load of cr*p and I much prefer the Japanese way of doing things. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| They're just interpreting an act. The legislation hasn't been changed. It's just administrative law (a tribunal interpreting its governing statute). |
Ah but that's the point Seeburn. In practical terms it's new legislation, because a new administrative law is in place. The situation you once knew is no more. A new situation prevails, and has prevailed for some 10 months now (without your knowledge).
This flatly contradicts the out of date information you were supplying, and demonstrates how important it is that people on this forum listen to those with experience. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Oh my goodness! Where to start?
| markholmes wrote: |
I didn't post on Forumosa to prove anyone wrong I posted it to see if anyone would come forward to confirm that the new rules actually work in practice. If it doesn't work in practice, then depsite the legislation it doesn't work at all.
TS, why do you suspect nobody will come forward? Surely if the new rules are working well, somebody amongst those 3000 posters will have gone through this procedure. |
Well the good news is that one of the regular posters on Forumosa has indeed confirmed that you can add more than one employer to your ARC. He has seen it with his own two eyes, and as a respected and long term member of that board, I for one believe him. Now you can be content that the legislation does exist and that it does work in practice. End of discussion I would think.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| That's the exact same as it always was. You need a sponsor. |
Of course you need a sponsor. No one has ever said that you don�t nor shouldn�t.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| I am hesitant to accept your statement that the old employer is completely out of the loop though. |
With any respect that may be due � who cares whether you accept it or not. If you were actually living here you could confirm it in person. Since you are not actually living or working in Taiwan, and haven�t been here for two years (or whatever), does it really matter whether you as an individual are willing to accept the facts or not. If want to be blind man then that�s up to you.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Generally an ARC sponsorship requires a contract between the teacher and the school. If you quit, you break this contract. Then it is up to your original school as to what they will do. |
It seems clear that you are confused between the work permit and the ARC. This confusion is quite common among newbies as it is really made that clear by the powers that be, but as you claim to be such a Taiwan expert I would have thought that you would have known better. I have explained the difference earlier up this thread, and shown why none of this matters.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| At any rate, if you end up without a sponsor I believe you have a short time to get out of the country and your ARC isn't worth bird cr*p (which is actually quite valuable in the tropics), so it isn't really yours. |
As well you should otherwise you would become an illegal hobo like our old friend AKATDN. The fact is though that you are never without a sponsor as you transfer over to a new sponsor before the old sponsors sponsorship expires. Pretty simple really!
MOD EDIT
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| They're just interpreting an act. The legislation hasn't been changed. It's just administrative law (a tribunal interpreting its governing statute). A big chain school with some money and some good lawyers could get around that probably. But it may be safe now at smaller schools for as long as this situation lasts. |
Wrong again Jason. Nixing your theory is the fact that we now have a substantiated example of an individual having the legal entitlement to work for two of the biggest chain schools here in Taiwan � Hess and Kojen.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| What happens if the old school neglects (intentionally) to notify the Executive Yuan? |
That�s the beauty of it all. It doesn�t matter whether they do or not from your perspective anyway. There would be legal ramifications upon them for failing to file the appropriate paperwork but you wouldn�t care as you would be legally working at your new job.
| jason_seeburn wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Seeburn claims that it is alright for a school to withold it and give you a photocopy. |
| Quote: |
| Seeburn is wrong. No two ways about it. |
Alright? when did I say that? I said that the school routinely WILL withold your ARC and give you a copy. |
And that Jason, is just plain wrong. You are the first person that I have ever heard of in ten years of being in Taiwan that has ever allowed their school to hold their ARC. Now I don�t have a problem with that, and neither do you obviously. That�s fine. The problem is when you come here and state that your experience is the �routine� when it is not. By your own admission in previous posts you admit that your school was newly set up and they had very little idea of how to do things. I don�t believe that they withheld your ARC for maliciously, but as neither they nor you knew any better, it was what you did. Just because it is the experience that you had in the single school that you worked in during your nine month Taiwan experience two years ago � does not make it the routine.
This sums up what I have been saying all along, and the reason for the signature that I use on my threads. Some of the stuff you post here is just a laugh. But some of it has far more serious ramifications. You should be more responsible in your posting and post the truth as far as saying, �In the only school that I worked at in Taiwan the school withheld my ARC and gave me a copy�, and not that it is routine for schools to do so. Jason you are wrong no matter which way you argue it or try to twist your words. Just accept this and move on. |
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