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[m o n k]

Here's a theory I'd like to get some feedback on: Some Taiwanese consider it a loss of face to speak Chinese to a westerner because it gives others the impression that they are unable to speak English to the westerner.

I have examples to share which have led me to this theory, but I'll wait to see what you guys have to say.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk,

Indeed, you may be correct in your analysis. In my opinion, there are actually three aspects regarding face:

1. One can lose face (negative)
2. One can avoid losing face (neutral), and
3. One can gain face (positive)

I see these on a continuum. While it is possible that a Taiwanese person might lose face for not being able to speak English, I think it is more likely that someone will gain face if he or she can speak English fluently.

A lot of it depends on the setting and who is watching. For example, bosses, co-workers, classmates, etc.

I suspect that your theory is even more true in China, where folks are even more adamant about speaking English to gain face--because mainlanders are very competitive, in my experience.

Taylor
Kaohsiung 7+ years

[TaoyuanSteve]

An interesting idea. I haven't seen the lost face for no English, but I think I play the game with Taiwanese re: gaining face for speaking English. I kind of learned it from them. Taiwanese used to compliment my Chinese ability every time I gave them a Ni hao. Now I pour on the praise every time a local says something like "thank you" in English . I guess I'm giving face.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk,

Would like to hear your experiences regarding your original post.

Also, as for educational settings, do you think local teachers (Taiwanese) should speak only English to their students?

It seems that face might be the main issue, but does "No Chinese" instruction really help students comprehend English better?

Taylor

[m o n k]

Taylor,

I formed my theory after repeatedly having the following types of experiences:

1. Store workers speaking to me in Chinese until a Taiwanese person walked in the store. Then the store worker would abruptly pretend we had been speaking English. Very weird. (This type of thing has happened to me in various situations, not all involving store workers.)

2. Having Taiwanese ignore me or answer me as non-verbally as possible when I talk to them in Chinese. Yet I have seen the same people spend a lot of time trying to talk up a Japanese friend whose Chinese is almost non-existent. It seems like they are embarrassed to talk to me, but over-the-top willing to try and hold a conversation in Chinese with Asian foreigners.

Several white foreigners I know have had the same experiences. The ABCs and Japanese foreiners I know have never had this problem, even when their Chinese was pretty bad.

I have mostly had these negative experiences with younger to middle aged people, and I guess people who you could describe as more educated. I have never had a problem talking to the old men and women working at food stands. Taxi drivers also have no problem talking up a storm to me in Chinese.

I want to clarify a few things also, lest people jump to conclusions. The situations I have described are happening under everyday circumstances. I am not trying to strike up complex and irrelevant conversations with storeowners or people on the street. I do not think highly of my ability in Chinese; however, I do know how to order food or ask someone at Giordano if a certain shirt comes in a different color. I am not a weirdo foreigner, either, if you know what I mean. I have just noticed that (IMHO) it is much harder for a white foreigner to find opportunities to use his/her basic Chinese than it is for an Asian foreigner.

As for your question about local teachers and "No Chinese" in the classroom, Taylor, I think it is a good idea, and it works fine. I think it should be seen as a rule that can be broken from time to time. You don't want to spend 15 minutes trying to explain a word or concept when you could just have someone say the word in Chinese and have everyone understand instantly. In my classes I have asked someone in to say a difficult English word or phrase in Chinese so that I knew everybody would be on the same page. THIS often helps to save face, as nobody has to admit they don't know the word.

As far as the "No Chinese" rule giving face to the Chinese teachers, I very much doubt that it is an issue. I think Taiwanese people who can speak English well worry less about losing face for not speaking English. In fact, the people who talk to me most in Chinese are the local teachers. They encourage me all the time by starting conversations in Chinese. Even out in public at night markets, they will talk to me in Chinese. They, unlike some others, do not seem to worry about who is watching them, or who is thinking they can't speak English.

[TaoyuanSteve]

I don't know what Monk thinks, but I think all target language instruction absolutely helps in language acquisition, at least it has been my experience. Before I came here, I taught in my home country for quite a while. I taught numerous nationalities of esl learners as well as a broad range of age groups. I have always believed in an all English classroom. When I had to teach a class of little kids with zero English (and whose language I couldn't speak), I used methods such as total physical response exercises, flashcards, drawing pictures, gestures songs and games to teach the language with great success.

Plus there is definitely something to be said for the listening comprehension that is gained from hearing the language so often. When I was in a Chinese language course, the class was all in Chinese. I'm not even sure that the teacher could speak English if she wanted to. It did wonders for my language ability. I recently did a driving test for a car license in Taiwan. I found that I was able to understand what the examiner was telling me (I didn't bring a translator), even though the situation and a lot of the vocabulary were new to me, because I had developed a listening ability and an ability to use context clues. In short, I am used to experiencing new experiences and learning new Chinese vocabulary in Chinese.

It was not until I moved to Taiwan that I experienced so much translation in an esl classroom. IMHO, this is a bad method and its use, in part, explains why students can study English here for many years and still not be able to hold a conversation. Students here, I think, spend far too much time talking about English and not enough time developing a communicative ability in the language.

[Taylor]

Dear Monk & Taoyuan Steve,

Thank you both for your responses to my recent post.

Monk, I recall one recent comment on this board that Taipei "women" don't like it when a guy speaks Chinese. I thought this was interesting. I've only lived in Kaohsiung, so I wonder if there is a significant difference. I guess they might not like to see a foreign guy "go native" too extensively.

Taoyuan Steve, do you really believe that what occurred in the classroom was the deciding factor in learning to listen "in Chinese"? Surely you must have learned a lot outside the classroom, too. Personally, I learned a lot by listening to the radio and talking with my Taiwanese mother-in-law. Also, my book at TLI had lots of explanations and translations written in English to help us get acclimated. (Outside of school textbooks and English magazines, you don't see many bi-lingual texts).

I recall one class of 11 and 12 year-olds that I had in Kaohsiung. They had all studied at different locations before--some with all foreigners, some with all locals, some of both. When you looked at their abilities, attitudes, pronunciation, etc. it was very difficult to guess much about their backgrounds. Therefore, I think the student's personality and individual makeup is the real deciding factor.

Would love to hear the comments of others. WELCOME!

Taylor

[TaoyuanSteve]

You're right. My course was not the only determining factor in my Chinese learning, although it did help a lot. I'd actually credit my students for a lot of my learning. They are surprisingly good little teachers. I remember what must have been my first teaching day in Taiwan. One kid comes up to me and says, "laoshi, gei wo liang zhang tie zhi." Obviously, not understanding, I just say, "huh?" Kid repeats. Teacher still looks perplexed. Kid says again slower, makes a gesture for two and points to my stickers. Then the light goes on. "Oh, give me two stickers. Ok." Kid flashes a "V" sign and says, "yeah!" Kid got two free stickers and teacher learned his first Chinese sentence.

I think Monk is on to something re: face and English. I think English ability can be a chance to show off, especially if others are around. It seems to fit the pattern and may explain the Taipei xiaojie phenomenon. A lady can get big face by having the status of a western boyfriend and the ability to speak English to him. It also may explain a strange experience I had a while ago. There was a time I went to a shabu shabu restaurant and the waitress was very strange. Even though I had initiated by speaking Mandarin and she understood, she kept saying, " bu hao yi si, wo pa wo bu hui jiang ying yu." I kept reassuring her that I had no intention of speaking English to her, but she just had it in her head that she has to be able to speak English to talk to foreigners. She then avoided us as much as she could for the rest of the time we were there. At the time, I thought it was my Mandarin ability (I always assume communication problems are my problem. I'm not a native speaker of Mandarin), but was assured by my girlfriend -- and other patrons-- that what I said was clear and correct. She was just behaving strangely. Perhaps she felt she was losing face in front of all the customers because of her inability to communicate with me in English. I have also had instances where people have unnecessarily included English in a conversation, it seems, as a way of showing that they can speak English. English as a face-giving status symbol? Could be.