Job Discussion Forums

[Maxine]

I've been following this sight for quite some time now. Unfortunately, some sights attract the wrong kind of people. XXXXX, you obviously haven't read the other e-mails in this string, and just taken a peek at the first one or two. There are some real and perfectly feasible arguements here.

XXXXX, next time it may be better to read before you comment. Being obnoxious will get you nowhere! We are dealing with real people here, on this sight, not just robots with qualifications.

Maxine

XXXXX inserted by moderator. Play nice people! Personal insults are unnecessary.

[Maxine]

Hi,

I don't know why the xxxx's came when I wrote the previous e-mailer's name. I didn't know that xxxxx is a swear word.

I was only sticking up for people without a degree. You live and learn.

Maxine

[bnix]

I think it is interesting that you think you have to resort to personal invective to make a point.I know the old issue of qualifications is a sore one,especially with those who have none,but of course I am not trying to insult you personally,so the moderator will not have to"X" out my message.Although a degree does not necessarily mean that a person will be an excellent or even adequate teacher,this moldy old excuse is hauled out everytime by those who find it inconvenient(or who are just too plain lazy) to get the requisite qualifications.

No,a degree does not guarantee a person will be a wonderful teacher.It does show,however,that the person is serious enough about this field to at least try to get some qualifications.Ultimately,this makes more sense than the people who try to teach with NO qualifications,relying on their"charisma",good looks,or whatever.

[Roger]

As I see it, the English language teaching business suffers from a number of misconceptions and a bad image.
One can safely say the English language's popularity is its own enemy!

First, its popularity: It is a compulsory subject in many countries, and it is a new subject in most as English has been imposed on the students there by government decree. I suppose, In Japan, students until the end of WW II hardly ever felt they needed to learn English. Korea - probably ditto. China: English has replaced Russian only two decades ago! In Europe: It seldom is students' first foreign tongue! It often is language no. 3 or 4 that students are studying.

With the exception of Europe, (and Africa) everywhere else English has had to start from scratch. Have these countries been able to devise English programmes for their own students? Have they had time to train professional teachers?

Evidently no!
That is why native speakers have been involved to a very large extent in these countries. Few of us teach in Africa, Singapore or India because our contribution would be negligible!
We are often being used in a Confucian setting and as subalterns. Most of us are conversation teachers, a role that does not command as much respect as the teaching done by our local colleagues.

Another point is that the myth of native English teachers is what I call it - a myth. In the past, it protected jobs, but these days, it is a cover-up that guarantees employment for people whose sole credential is their mother tongue. How many native English teachers master a second tongue? That tells you where the main problem is!

Note that European countries seldom require native teachers for any language! Is there any French native speaker craze? Not that I know of it - and I am rather familiar with both the language and the country. Or German? They are even proud if they can hire an immigrant to teach their language - it raises its profile! Not that teaching German is easier than teaching English is!

Yet, the CHinese guy I met at Hong Kong's GOethe Instiut, the Filippina I saw at Alliance Francaise were not backpackers.

[Glenski]

I started this thread. My question was, "Why do people without degrees complain when they learn that they need a degree to get a work visa?"

Nina's comments have been wonderful and enlightening. However, I see her situation as rather unique. Whether you live in Bosnia or any other part of the world, there's always the chance that you may not have the right conditions to complete a college degree.

My question was a little more pointed. Why do such people complain about being unable to find work without that degree? I can understand a person's strong desire to teach. I can understand frustration at finding out you need the degree. Please tell me why this desire and frustration goes beyond normal limits to the point where people almost state online that "it's not fair" or that "there MUST be a way", almost as if by saying such a thing will change the immigration regulations.


I was rather disappointed in my other question on this thread. Only a couple of people answered where it is that people may have heard that Japan is a country with "streets of gold" for English teachers. One person said a receptionist in his Canadian school, and the other referred to his experience from ten years ago.

I guess people don't have answers to this, or are unwilling to respond. I doubt that everyone who DOES have the answer failed to read this post. I have posted this in other forums with similarly dismal replies.

As a result, I will still continue answering people's questions online and by email, and I will still do my best to do so professionally. HOWEVER, I may slip at times with my own frustration, so please bear with me. One forum where I respond has a FAQ section that could use some additional questions such as this, and I would like to suggest that Dave make a similar FAQ if it's possible. To send people to another section of his wonderful web site that contains only more listings of whiners and complainers (even though they are specifically about Japan) is rather defeating in its purpose. Dave, if you read this, you will understand that this is constructive criticism, and I also understand that making such an FAQ might be a little too difficult. Just offering my suggestions.

[Irish]

As someone who has lurked around the cafe for a while now, I have to say that I admire your patience and willingness to help people, Glenski. Answering common questions is one thing but your attempts to reason with people who insist that they should be allowed to work even though they cannot legally do so is incredible. I don't know how you stand it.

Having an FAQ would probably not halt the questions entirely, but it might cut down on them. Hopefully this is something Dave could do here someday. If people persist in complaining or asking how they can teach without a degree (as if rephrasing the same question repeatedly will magically result in the desired answer), perhaps they should be instructed to call that country's nearest embassy and pester them about it.

Regarding where the "easy cash in Japan" line comes from, maybe it's time to start asking the people who make those "I heard you can make tons of $$$ in Japan for doing nothing--how do I get in on it?" posts where they got their info. Since this topic began, I've run into another person who believes this. I asked him where he heard it. His reply, "Oh, I don't know...everybody knows it, you know?"

Maybe it's a conspiracy.

[Glenski]

[quote="Irish"] The other types will begin submitting posts like, "I just read the FAQ and it says you need a degree for Japan, but my sister's ex-boyfriend's cousin's roommate once met a guy in a bar who knew somebody that made LOADS of $$$ in Tokyo without one..."
quote]

Irish, you just made my day with that remark! (Seriously, it's very amusing.) We already see such statements from people without an FAQ around. I think the important thing to do at that point is to pin that person to the wall with questions that take no prisoners.

For example:
Do you believe EVERYTHING you hear in a bar?
Oh, so secondhand (or is it fifth-hand) information is more reliable?
Define "Loads".
What more can you tell me about that "somebody"? For example, did he work 90 hours a week? Did he get caught working illegally? Did he have a spouse visa?

Usually, these questions get no response, so the general public sees the original author as providing baseless "information". The FAQ can provide properly supported facts (whether specific to a particular country or not).

As to whether or not any original poster reads the FAQ or not, I would only suggest that the moderator withholds the post and sends a message privately to the poster to read the FAQ first, then repost with more specific questions.

These are and will always be my questions to such outlandish (yet widely seen) remarks. All given in professional tone (and sometimes clenched teeth), of course.

[Irish]

Glenski:

Glad you got a giggle from that. You're right of course--those posts are common enough already. Who knows? Maybe your technique of pounding them with logic is waking some of them up and making them face reality before they find themselves in a horrible situation. As for those who refuse to listen to you and forge ahead anyway...well, nature tends to punish stupidity.

Heck, I don't know why I'm frustrated--you're the one doing all the work!

If there's a teacher's heaven, you've surely done enough good works to guarantee your place there. Just stock up on aspirin and antacids in the meantime.

[Paul G]

Glenski:

In response to your last post:

1) The moderators cannot withold posts on this type of forum. The posts go up as soon as you hit the "submit" button. We can only Edit, Delete, Move, Lock and Unlock posts and threads. Asking the moderators to delete posts and then refer the poster to an FAQ section is a little much. That, essentially, would be asking us to decide who is asking stupid questions. This forum would turn into non-stop moderator bashing if we were to try to do that.

2) If you, Irish, PaulH and any of the other well informed Japan posters would like to collaborate on an FAQ post for the Japan section of this forum, we can keep it at the top of the thread list so that it is always the first post (thread) on the list. You would all need to collaborate on the FAQ's and make it into a single post if you want it to look like an official FAQ page. The original poster and/or a moderator could edit the FAQ's anytime it was necessary.

If you are interested in doing this, PM me and we can discuss it further.

Paul

[Robert Russell]

I have an MA TESOL from San Jose State. THis does not make me a better teacher. No doubt many with far less qualifications have been more successful in the classroom. In my situation in Korea I have observed that the younger, handsome teacher is more popular with the students, As a student told me: the teacher is handsome, young and exciting. If anything, my Masters compensates a little for my geriatric state . Thus far my degree has not enhanced my teaching that much. It has given me much more intellectual curiosity as I recognize many things in the classroom that I may not have questioned had I not had the training the MA gave me. Perhaps up the road the MA will pay off when seeking a university position. I went back to school at 46 and got my 2 year MA and do not regret the time, effort or money put into it. It was a great experience. I also feel that it contributes much to my having professional feelings about ESL. One absolute is that they know grammar and we from the States may be a bit grammatically challenged, so we had better go back to school and learn it!

PS> I am sure some of you grammarians can still see that I am a bit grammatically challenged!

[Sherri]

I think the urban myth that the streets are paved with gold for the non-degree holder in Japan got started during the bubble era. To a certain extent is was true--almost any native English speaker could come to Japan and make money fairly quickly and easily by just "chatting" When I arrived at the tail end of the bubble (1991) I met degreeless people who were making 500,000 plus a month at that time (most of those schools went under a year or so later). Some of these people were married so had a spouse visa and some got their "degrees" from Kao San Road in Bangkok.

[scot47]

Now I see that a chain has started on Teacher Training Forum on the lines of :"I did not finish High School. How can I get a TEFL job ?"

People amaze me !!

[Robert Russell]

I had a friend in Hong Kong who had no high school diploma, got a CELTA and was making 400.00 HK dollars an hour! That is 50.00 US an hour. And he was an excellent teacher! I am not as smart as him so I had to get an MA TSEOL

[TaoyuanSteve]

Hi. I thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion about degrees. It does seem silly that someone with, for example, an engineering degree has more teaching opportunities in Asia than someone with any other combination of experience, but no four year degree. If it seems arbitrary, that's because it is. Wealthier Asian economies have similar problems with migrant workers as Western economies do. If they want to protect the jobs of their own, they have to restrict immigration. They do, however, want English teachers. They cannot simply allow white, English speaking migrant workers to enter the country while expelling poor non-white labourers. You see where I'm going with this? They have to be somewhat fair. They do this by importing us as professionals under their immigration system. The government can point to the fact that we're university educated to deflect criticism that they're being racist in their policies or that they're depriving their own citizens of opportunities. So, in having a degree, we are just meeting government regulations. However, you do have to meet them all the same. Don't complain.

[scot47]

That is probably spot-on about demanding a degree to deflect criticism from those who do not want to see migrant labour in the classroom. It is possibly also an argument for insisting on "native speakers". If you HAVE to have a native speaker then you HAVE TO import them from Kansas or Manchester. In fact very often a competent teacher (regardless of first language) is often better than a "native speaker". But if the students and parents believe they have to have a "native speaker of English" then they have to recruit us !