Job Discussion Forums

[Roger]

I have on several occasions shared with readers my most intimate conviction that there absolutely is no scientifically-relevant need for native English teachers in a foreign country such as China EXCEPT TO TRAIN CHINESE ENGLISH TEACHERS - and, perhaps, to give preschoolers a first touch and a firm grounding in the English tongue. In most other cases - primary schools, middle schools as well as corporate classes and adult training we are a dessert not digested well.

We are mostly used in conversation classes, most of which do not function. Our Chinese students have not received the right immersion in the English language to study on their own, to correct their fossilised mispronunciations. Chinese students up to university level are hooked to their teachers, not to the language; they do what he or she expects them to do, not what their own mind should tell them to do. They have no initative and no personal curiosity. They have in fact not learnt English, they have memorised English vocables, and to some extent, the grammar rules. Most of them cannot communicate because their thinking has not been developed. They speak Chinese using English words. They do not understand standard English because of the grammar involved.

Their English pronunciation has been drilled into them through chorussing and by reading anything that comes their way aloud, reading unthinkingly just to practise pronunciation - even when they do not know how to pronounce a word!

Their teachers do not display any enthusiasm for English, and so few learners develop a genuine interest in the language. Few care to communicate in nonverbal ways - reading and writing. Books are not high on their agenda. English, apparently, is all about making foreign noises, not about communicating about things that have, perhaps, never been mentioned in Chinese books or periodicals.

The idea that native speakers should be used exclusively to practise spoken English has for eight long years been striking me as esoteric, crazy, whimsical.

[Bertrand]

[quote="Minhang Oz"]
On Bertrand's observations however:
I'm a professional. I currently teach 16 hours a week over four days. I get less than half his salary, but imagine it goes as far, and supports a comparable standard of living. I save 70% of my income without trying to. This is my second China stint, and I'm here because I like living and working here. I still have a permanent, well paid job on hold at "home" which involves 24 classroom hours a week, and as much again in marking, meetings, extra duties etc. Probably the kind of KFC fast food English outlet you mention does many exploitative things to its employees , but I've got no intention of working for them. I don't think many of the posters here intend to either.
So Bertrand, sometimes we need to paint with a broad brush, but the situation on the mainland is much more complex than your portrayal.
And you may be in Hong Kong, but remember, "Yi ge Zhong guo"

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Hmm, well I can't read Pinyin without tones now, can I? There is simply too many minimal pairs (as I'm sure you know).

Anyway, sounds like you arte doing fine so fair play to you. China can be Hell or Heaven depending if you are working for EF or not respectively.

Yes, I'm sure the situation is complex there; it is, after al, the only state in the world where everything is complex (such as trying to get on a bus or trying to go to the bank - though Mike Tyson would do well there).

[Minhang Oz]

Bertrand, it sounds like you had a memorable time on the mainland, for all the wrong reasons. And now you're a happy chappie in Honkers. Your comments on EF are echoed many times in these pages, and hopefully readers now are very aware of the pitfalls. But blaming the home of a quarter of humanity for your failure to master the public transport and banking systems is a bit lopsided. And I think you can work out some toneless pinyin, just like most Shanghaiers understand [and speak] toneless Putonghua. You, and the rest of Hong Kong understand what it says, you just don't want to believe it.

[American Friend of China]

Regarding the comment from the author "Dragon" who wrote that "They probably just want to take our innocent young Chinese girls away."

Two points to make here:

(1) You shouldn't discriminate against all foreign-Chinese married couples. If the foreigner came to China only for the purpose of finding a Chinese wife and/or met his wife through the internet, then, yes, you are right, woe be to him. But if the relationship was a natural true love relationship because the foreigner lived in the same place for a long time, then you shouldn't discriminate against that. For example, I have lived in the same city for more than three years, and my wife and I didn't marry until after we knew each other for one and a half years. And I didn't come to China for the purpose of finding a wife. It was a natural unplanned thing. So, you shouldn't put a stereotypical label on all foreign-Chinese boy-girl relationships.

(2) Not all Chinese girls are innocent. Of course, there are many Chinese girls who are the most wonderful people in the world. But there are also many who are far from being innocent. For example, I've seen and heard of many cases where girls intentionally attach themselves to married men and pressure the man to divorce his wife, breaking up families, including families with a child. These aren't just things that happen in T.V. dramas on CCTV-8. It is actually a widespread occurrance in urban China. And also, at many work places, there are girls who "play ball" with the bosses in order to get promotions or pay raises. I know of cases at the airports, where about 40% of female airport employees do this, even though some of them already have husbands or boyfriends. And then, of course, there are the bath houses, massage parlors, and KTV centers. Are you suggesting that these businesses' revenues are entirely legitimate? So basically, the point here is that no society is perfect, and China has both good girls and bad girls.

So, I would avoid placing stereotypical labels on mixed race couples, because that is actually a form of racism.

[struelle]

[smarts]

Most Chinese probably couldnt give a hoot if the native speaker is a qualified teacher or not.

The best EFL teachers are bilingual English / Chinese teachers.
Thats reality.

[Minhang Oz]

Well, Smarts' down to earth remark certainly put an end to that promising linguistic debate. Talk about being a pimple on the great arse of education!
However, it begs the question.
What if somebody doesn't know what the hell they're doing in either language?

[chinasyndrome]

[quote="Minhang Oz"]

[ESL Guru]

Probably spoken by a bilingual who does not know what a meadow muffin is.

Teach in the target language and forget about the bilingual meadow muffins! The comment is pure uninformed trash unsupported by and contradictory to all of the current research.

Probably does not even know one end of the cow from the other.