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Lucky99
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:58 am Post subject: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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Im a new teacher in Poland and i wondering if i am getting screwed on my taxes. I am working for a school that is offering me 70zl an hour. I know that this is a very competitive wage, but they are taxing me at 39%. They told me that 20% is for regular taxes and the other is for the mandatory Zus. My net pay is now 43zl and hour and this is a real hour and not an academic one. I read somewhere however that i dont not have to pay this tax as i am a foreigner. I am from Canada and so i was wondering if i have to pay more because of the country of my origin.
Also i am having troubles meeting people. I am teaching in Wroclaw and if anyone knows a good place for natives speakers to meet people or has a general idea. If they could respond to this post and tell me about some good places i would very much appreciate it.
Thanx  |
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Michael Gaylord
Joined: 09 Oct 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Kalisz, Poland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi "lucky",
Not sure about the tax-take-off, but it sounds like a bit much to me. Of course, you are making a much higher wage than any that I have heard of-I make 35/hr, for ex., before taxes-as for meeting other native speakers, I don't meet any either, but this is actually a blessing after a while, because it forces you to learn some Polish and to make local friends. However, I'm not too, too far from wrocław, am in ostrow area, and travel to wrocław once every month, sometimes a bit more. perhaps we could connect. my e-mail address is [email protected]. good luck.
Mike |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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| Lucky99 wrote: |
| Im a new teacher in Poland and i wondering if i am getting screwed on my taxes. I am working for a school that is offering me 70zl an hour. I know that this is a very competitive wage, but they are taxing me at 39%. They told me that 20% is for regular taxes and the other is for the mandatory Zus. My net pay is now 43zl and hour and this is a real hour and not an academic one. I read somewhere however that i dont not have to pay this tax as i am a foreigner. I am from Canada and so i was wondering if i have to pay more because of the country of my origin. |
Yes you are getting screwed on taxes. You have to get a contract to provide a specified service (in Polish it is called an umowa o dzielo, should be the Polish 'barred l' but that font isn't offered on this board). With that contract type you don't need to pay any ZUS at all. You should pay 20% of your salary as income tax but can deduct some income so it actually works out at 16% flat tax of what you earn.
The 'no tax paid by foreigners for the first x number of years' line is a common misconception. It was true, back in the very early 1990's, then the law was changed. But rumours of it still do the rounds. Your country of origin makes no difference at all to the amount of tax that you pay in Poland.
I get the feeling that your employers know what I have just told you and that they are just putting the money which they "deduct for ZUS" straight into their pockets. Speak to them tomorrow about the umowa o dzielo and if they try to give you any shit at all about it then it's time to look for another job. The good news is that there are always a few people who don't come back after the Christmas holiday and the inter-semester break so it shouldn't be too hard to find another job. |
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Lucky99
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:58 am Post subject: Thank you |
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Thank you to everyone who has replyed to my posting. I hope that there will be some more (especially on the friends issue) I am really greatful that a website like this exists. Without people like those who responded, English teachers would continually get screwed over by their bosses. This website allows us teachers to fight back as many of us new comers dont have any idea about the laws in a new country.
I thank you again and hope to somehow repay the favour.
Dave   |
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rchris
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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Ok guys, let me tell you something about taxes in Poland. I have read some posts on this forum and I am astonished what kind of misconceptions can be found among native English speakers working in Poland. I am Polish and I know something about taxes here, but as I can see some native speakers of English think that they are deceived on taxes not knowing that nothing like that is happening. In fact they are not closer at all to get to know the truth about taxes in Poland.
| Lucky99 wrote: |
Im a new teacher in Poland and i wondering if i am getting screwed on my taxes. I am working for a school that is offering me 70zl an hour. I know that this is a very competitive wage, but they are taxing me at 39%. They told me that 20% is for regular taxes and the other is for the mandatory Zus. My net pay is now 43zl and hour and this is a real hour and not an academic one. I read somewhere however that i dont not have to pay this tax as i am a foreigner. I am from Canada and so i was wondering if i have to pay more because of the country of my origin...
Thanx |
Well, taxes in Poland are extremely high. But it is even worse than you think because this 70 zł an hour for you means 84,55 zł from an employer pocket. The employer has to pay the extra mandatory ZUS which is 20,79% of your gross amount per hour!
Last year it used to be 20% for regular taxes but this year is 19% The mandatory ZUS is calculated from your gross rate and it comes to 19,21% (18,71% + 0,5% ) According to this calculations deduction from your gross rate comes to 38,21% (there are some costs allowances so it should be a little less than 38,21% - I guess 35% or so). I do not know the details of your contract but it seems to me that roughly speaking everything is ok. What is more to say, your rate per hour is extremely high so I think you should appreciate it! |
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rchris
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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| Alex Shulgin wrote: |
| Lucky99 wrote: |
| Im a new teacher in Poland and i wondering if i am getting screwed on my taxes. I am working for a school that is offering me 70zl an hour. I know that this is a very competitive wage, but they are taxing me at 39%. They told me that 20% is for regular taxes and the other is for the mandatory Zus. My net pay is now 43zl and hour and this is a real hour and not an academic one. I read somewhere however that i dont not have to pay this tax as i am a foreigner. I am from Canada and so i was wondering if i have to pay more because of the country of my origin. |
Yes you are getting screwed on taxes. You have to get a contract to provide a specified service (in Polish it is called an umowa o dzielo, should be the Polish 'barred l' but that font isn't offered on this board). With that contract type you don't need to pay any ZUS at all. You should pay 20% of your salary as income tax but can deduct some income so it actually works out at 16% flat tax of what you earn.
The 'no tax paid by foreigners for the first x number of years' line is a common misconception. It was true, back in the very early 1990's, then the law was changed. But rumours of it still do the rounds. Your country of origin makes no difference at all to the amount of tax that you pay in Poland.
I get the feeling that your employers know what I have just told you and that they are just putting the money which they "deduct for ZUS" straight into their pockets. Speak to them tomorrow about the umowa o dzielo and if they try to give you any *beep* at all about it then it's time to look for another job. The good news is that there are always a few people who don't come back after the Christmas holiday and the inter-semester break so it shouldn't be too hard to find another job. |
You are right that country of origin makes no difference at all to the amount of tax that you pay in Poland. You are also right as you are claiming that a contract called �umowa o dzieło� does not require to pay ZUS. Unfortunately you are totally wrong saying that this is an option for an employer. Do you really think that this socialistic government we have is so stupid that allows anybody not to pay ZUS?
Umowa o dzieło is reserved for a special work which is aimed to accomplish the certain result. For instance it might be writing a book provided that you deliver the final product and for that final product (not for writing) you get your pay.
It is very risky business for schools to use this kind of contract of work (umowa o dzieło) instead of contract of service (umowa zlecenie). It is possible but requires from an employer to pretend that you are not doing what you are doing i.e. teaching English. Some are willing to take this risk because otherwise it does not pay to employ natives or natives does not want to work in order to be robbed by our government. Some may use combination of these two types of contract to minimize risk in case of investigation. You must understand that this not a tax paradise country but something quite opposite. In fact Poland have one of the highest taxation in the world. This system is really sick so do not blame employers. I agree that some of them might be dishonest but not most of them. So be careful with judging people too fast before you know the facts. Do not defame if you are not sure how the things really are.
Take care! |
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Lucky99
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Dear rChris,
I thank you for your advise about Polish taxes. I understand that the tax system is extremely messed up. But what i found out is that i am in fact under a umowa o dzielo contract. But my boss still wanted me to pay 39% tax. So i think that they may have been pocketing the rest. Or is it possible to pay 39% tax and still be under the umowa o dzielo contract?
Dave |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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| rchris wrote: |
| It is very risky business for schools to use this kind of contract of work (umowa o dzieło) instead of contract of service (umowa zlecenie). It is possible but requires from an employer to pretend that you are not doing what you are doing i.e. teaching English. Some are willing to take this risk because otherwise it does not pay to employ natives or natives does not want to work in order to be robbed by our government. Some may use combination of these two types of contract to minimize risk in case of investigation. You must understand that this not a tax paradise country but something quite opposite. In fact Poland have one of the highest taxation in the world. This system is really sick so do not blame employers. I agree that some of them might be dishonest but not most of them. |
So, which school do you own? I've been working in Poland for nearly ten years. In the time which I have been legally employed by Polish companies in Poland (the last seven years), I have always been employed under an umowa o dzielo. I have paid either 19% tax or 16% tax for the past seven years. Of course all of that work has been done at PASE approved schools, no doubt things are a bit different at the Cowboys 'r Us schools which are all too common in Poland.
Why should us foreigners have to pay more tax than Poles? All the Polish teachers have their own companies and so pay 19% tax (having first taken off essential expenses like their electricity, phone bill, cell phone bill, internet access, taxis, trains, etc, etc). Sure they pay ZUS (or at least the minimum payment on their first job - the job which pays virtually no money) but then they get benefits from ZUS. As for us foreigners, we get no benefits from ZUS. The law on ZUS is written so that only Polish citizens can claim from ZUS. Why should us foreigners pay to ZUS when we get nothing from ZUS? Perhaps you Poles would just like us to just hand you our cash? Actually you'd better not answer that question.... |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucky99 wrote: |
is it possible to pay 39% tax and still be under the umowa o dzielo contract?
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No. They are robbing you. New job time. But at least this is a good time of year to be looking for a new job. |
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Lucky99
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Alex Wrote:
Why should us foreigners have to pay more tax than Poles? All the Polish teachers have their own companies and so pay 19% tax (having first taken off essential expenses like their electricity, phone bill, cell phone bill, internet access, taxis, trains, etc, etc). Sure they pay ZUS (or at least the minimum payment on their first job - the job which pays virtually no money) but then they get benefits from ZUS. As for us foreigners, we get no benefits from ZUS. The law on ZUS is written so that only Polish citizens can claim from ZUS. Why should us foreigners pay to ZUS when we get nothing from ZUS? Perhaps you Poles would just like us to just hand you our cash? Actually you'd better not answer that question....
Well Put Alex. |
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rchris
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex Shulgin wrote: |
| Lucky99 wrote: |
is it possible to pay 39% tax and still be under the umowa o dzielo contract?
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No. They are robbing you. New job time. But at least this is a good time of year to be looking for a new job. |
I agree! It is not possible to be under the umowa o dzieło contract and pay 39% tax. Actually you should pay only 15.2 % or even 10% tax.
The first case is for a regular umowa o dzieło where you can take off 20% of cost allowances. It means that the base amount for taxation is only 80% of the contract amount. Because the 19% tax is calculated from that last amount so this means that you pay 15.2% of total amount.
The second case is for an umowa o dzieło which enables you to have 50% cost allowances. It is meant to be use for a special work which is creative and invent some new quality. It might be for instance the designing some new syllabus or method of teaching which is not compilation of other people work and is copyrighted. There are many legal and contrary interpretation of what can or what can not be such kind of contract. Anyway it is a risky business to use this second kind of contract without a real proof of such a work.
The question is how do you get your money: cash or bank transfer? I am asking this question because if you get cash the amount of tax depends on how much your employer has to pay. He may be in the last income bracket and then he has to pay with his money 40% of tax (minus some cost allowances). It would be strange because since the beginning of 2004 he could choose flat 19% tax!
I think it would be the best policy to ask your employer to explain all of this. It is interesting what he is going to tell you. I am sure that with that knowledge you have now it would not be easy to deceive you.
Greetings! |
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rchris
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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| Alex Shulgin wrote: |
| rchris wrote: |
| It is very risky business for schools to use this kind of contract of work (umowa o dzieło) instead of contract of service (umowa zlecenie). It is possible but requires from an employer to pretend that you are not doing what you are doing i.e. teaching English. Some are willing to take this risk because otherwise it does not pay to employ natives or natives does not want to work in order to be robbed by our government. Some may use combination of these two types of contract to minimize risk in case of investigation. You must understand that this not a tax paradise country but something quite opposite. In fact Poland have one of the highest taxation in the world. This system is really sick so do not blame employers. I agree that some of them might be dishonest but not most of them. |
So, which school do you own? I've been working in Poland for nearly ten years. In the time which I have been legally employed by Polish companies in Poland (the last seven years), I have always been employed under an umowa o dzielo. I have paid either 19% tax or 16% tax for the past seven years. Of course all of that work has been done at PASE approved schools, no doubt things are a bit different at the Cowboys 'r Us schools which are all too common in Poland.
Why should us foreigners have to pay more tax than Poles? All the Polish teachers have their own companies and so pay 19% tax (having first taken off essential expenses like their electricity, phone bill, cell phone bill, internet access, taxis, trains, etc, etc). Sure they pay ZUS (or at least the minimum payment on their first job - the job which pays virtually no money) but then they get benefits from ZUS. As for us foreigners, we get no benefits from ZUS. The law on ZUS is written so that only Polish citizens can claim from ZUS. Why should us foreigners pay to ZUS when we get nothing from ZUS? Perhaps you Poles would just like us to just hand you our cash? Actually you'd better not answer that question.... |
Well, there is no use to mention the name of school I own. It is a huge school with branches all over Poland with a lot of number of students�
I am not saying that it is impossible to use this kind of contract as an umowa o dzieło. I am saying that for doing normal English lessons this kind of contract is at least improper and can be questioned. If this kind of contract is used in schools approved by PASE it does not mean anything to me, to ZUS or to Urząd Skarbowy (means: IRS) because PASE is not the authority in law. What these schools do is in a certain way very legal... but check your contract � probably you are not formally paid by hours but for certain tasks. It might be, for instance, accomplishing certain level of knowledge of you students etc. This is magic of words in contracts. They change everything!
And again you are right - there is no use to pay ZUS in Poland when you are foreigner (by the way the same is with Poles)! But I am not really sure if you are right about future benefits. I will ask my lawyer, but I am convinced that you have the same rights as Poles to retirement benefits. One thing is for sure: from the beginning of your employment you can use our Health System (which is completely sick but this is what we have) and after six months of paying ZUS if you are sick you will get sickness benefits. Of course it does not pay to pay ZUS because it is too expensive type of insurance. If you have a choice it is better to have a private medical insurance or at least a good credit card with insurance when you abroad.
Best Regards! |
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Polish Taxes and Friends |
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| rchris wrote: |
| I am not saying that it is impossible to use this kind of contract as an umowa o dzieło. I am saying that for doing normal English lessons this kind of contract is at least improper and can be questioned. If this kind of contract is used in schools approved by PASE it does not mean anything to me, to ZUS or to Urząd Skarbowy (means: IRS) because PASE is not the authority in law. What these schools do is in a certain way very legal... but check your contract � probably you are not formally paid by hours but for certain tasks. It might be, for instance, accomplishing certain level of knowledge of you students etc. This is magic of words in contracts. They change everything! |
I am well aware of the fact that I am not legally a teacher of English. What's your point? Do you mean that us foreigners should just sit back and accept 39% being deducted from our salary while the owner of the school correctly uses the tax system to employ us as something other than English teachers and so pays 16% or 10% of our salary as the tax he/she must pay and just pockets the remaining 23% or 29%? You can be sure that the owner of the school where the original poster works is doing just that.
Sorry, I forgot. Of course we should. Us foreigners are only here to help Poles or to spend our money. Otherwise we can just get out of Poland. That's what Mr Leper tells us isn't it?
BTW Three of the schools where I work have had tax inspections in the past two years. No problems at all with the way that we are paid. But good luck with the scaring newbies anyway.
| rchris wrote: |
And again you are right - there is no use to pay ZUS in Poland when you are foreigner (by the way the same is with Poles)! But I am not really sure if you are right about future benefits. I will ask my lawyer, but I am convinced that you have the same rights as Poles to retirement benefits. One thing is for sure: from the beginning of your employment you can use our Health System (which is completely sick but this is what we have) and after six months of paying ZUS if you are sick you will get sickness benefits. Of course it does not pay to pay ZUS because it is too expensive type of insurance. If you have a choice it is better to have a private medical insurance or at least a good credit card with insurance when you abroad.
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Of course a teacher has a choice. Just work for an hour in the home country every year and then their own national health care system covers them and thus the reciprocal health care agreement covers them and there is no reason to pay any ZUS at all. Health care is free anyway.
I look forward to hearing from your lawyer. Back when I was stupid enough to pay ZUS (I was working for the Polish govt so didn't have any choice) I was sick, I'd been paying ZUS for a lot more than 6 months. I got no sickness benefit at all. The law doesn't cover foreigners! As most school owners know. The only ones who 'deduct' ZUS just take the money from the teachers and then shove it straight into their own pocket. Why pay it when the teacher can't claim it? The worst that can happen for the school owner is that the teacher tries to claim and then can't, and when the teacher is told that ZUS won't pay, out the teacher won't let the owner pocket any more 'ZUS payments'. It's money for nothing as far as the owners are concerned! |
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Lucky99
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just so you guys know i am now being paid 50zl an hour, but under the table. I dont have any ZUS benefits, but it doesnt matter as i have already signed up for a private health plan. Thanks for all your help though. I am with Alex on the crap that is presented by the English schools in order for them to make more money. Maybe its because i am used to different standards of living, but this is no way to run a business. And once the teacher finds out, they will either quite or just do a lousy job teaching. Personally i am questioning on whether i wil teach in Poland for another year, because of all this stuff.
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Alex Shulgin
Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucky99 wrote: |
Just so you guys know i am now being paid 50zl an hour, but under the table.
.....
Personally i am questioning on whether i wil teach in Poland for another year, because of all this stuff.
:!: |
Don't leave just because of that! Almost all of the schools here are perfectly honest. I've only had two (well two and a half) bad experiences in Poland and one of those was not a Polish owned or run school anyway!
Why don't you pay tax? Just write some article about anything you want and then give it to your boss. He pays you what he would have paid you for teaching anyway but it is less 10% tax. Then you are completely legal. 10% is not exactly robbery as tax levels go. |
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