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Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Paul and Taiki;

Dont mean to be rude (at least not on THIS thread), but how did your kids grow up not speaking any English? I mean, they have a native speaker as a parent.....

I was at the JALT conference last month and there was an interesting discussion about bicultural children. Same thing there- lots of kids grow up with no English. Maybe I am a little thick, but I dont understand how it happens. The racist b.astard in me could see it happening if one parent spoke an obscure language (like Romanian or Icelandic) which would have no social use compared to the other (Japanese or English), but not when both parents come from rich first world nations.

taikibansei · Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 811 Location: Japan

Nagoyaguy,

Well, speaking for myself, my wife doesn't speak English, my in-laws do not speak English, the kids' schools were Japanese-only, there were no English-speaking foreigners within, say, 50 miles of where we lived in Japan, and I worked over 65 hours a week in what was overwhelmingly a Japanese language-only environment--so, not to be rude, but just when were my two youngest kids supposed to learn fluent English?!!!! I mean, no bloody offense, but just because you live in a big city and depend on your wife for all communication with the Japanese doesn't mean that's true for all foreigners in Japan--some of us live in rural areas of Japan where the only local English speaker is the native speaker parent, and if that parent works full time (actually, more than full time) at a real job, their children will naturally become stronger in Japanese, relying on it in all exigencies. Make sense now?

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

spidey · Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:

I tend to agree with Nagoyaguy.

The responsibility definitely falls on the parents to take the time and to put forth the effort necessary for their children to benefit from becoming bilingual/ bicultural. Unfortunately, many parents take the easy road and just hope that their kids will pick up both languages naturally. Speaking as a person that grew up in a trilingual family, this just doesn't happen.

S

taikibansei · Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 811 Location: Japan

taikibansei · Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 811 Location: Japan

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Taiki, you are very touchy, aint you? Learn to relax.

As to your kids, you said;

johanne · Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 189

I'm in an opposite situation here in Vancouver. My 3 year old speaks only in English, although she understands a lot of Japanese. She has spent most of her first 3 years at home with me and in daycare where everyone speaks English, so it is her language for the moment My husband, who's Japanese, tends to speak to her in English because now that she talks it's so cool to communicate with her that he doesn't make the effort to speak in Japanese. I've tried to convince him, but he's not biting for the moment. We are sending her to a Japanese pre-school here in Vancouver from January in perperation for moving back to Japan in July. I'm sure she'll pick up Japanese fast then, so I'm not so worried now. I think my biggest task will be keeping up her English when we are in Japan - my in-laws speak none. However, I am an elementary school teacher so I feel very comfortable teaching her to read and write in English.
I think there's no absolute right way to make your kids bilingual. In my case my mother spoke to me in French most of the time and my father in English. Now I'm fluent in French, but because I went to school in English, I consider that my native language, and certainly it is the stronger one. I do agree with the point, however, that it takes an effort and will not happen magically. I also think that children want to speak the language of their classmates - I've noticed this over and over again with my students in public school in Vancouver, where is many cases the home language is not English, but the kids become native English speakers to the detriment of their home language and often by the third generation that original language is pretty much gone.
It's definately the parent who is in the "foreign" country who has to make the effort and find a way to give their child natural opportunities to use that second language. Good luck to all parents in this situation - it's not easy and there's no reason to be judgemental of others who are struggling with this.

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Aaah, Taiki Taiki Taiki........

Not sure how to approach you. You sound so defensive, and at the same time irritated. I hope you dont speak to your children the way you come across here, all short tempered and immature.

IMHO, the discussion was about how people IN JAPAN try to raise their children to speak both english and Japanese. You indicated that IN JAPAN you made little or no effort to do so. Now, apparently, you are back in your home country- will you do anything to help your children keep up their Japanese skills?

taikibansei · Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 811 Location: Japan

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Taiko,

How little you know.......

If my first post offended you ,or hit to close to home, my apologies. I asked a simple question about how children can live with a parent and not speak that parent's language. You came back with 5 excuses as to why not- inlaws, work, etc.

Now, you have devolved into pathetic attempts at insult- at my Japanese ability, my career, and my marital situation. All things which you know nothing about, yet which you feel the need to comment on. Is your life so empty that you need to resort to this? Really?

As to your children, I was merely going by what YOU said- remember? Paul mentioned that his child spoke Japanese only, and you replied;

Sherri · Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:33 am Post subject:

Just and idea of what to expect...

Stretch
I didn't see if you posted where you would be living, but that makes a big difference in costs for childcare. I have 2 kids who were born in Tokyo (father Japanese). I left Japan after being there almost 14 years because I personally did not have the confidence to raise them in Japan. There is a wide choice of childcare available and most of it I would say is of pretty high standard. The place my then 2-year-old daughter was attending was fantastic. They even had web cameras so that the parents could see what their kids were doing while at pre-school. She loved it there, but it was an "international kindergarden" so everyone spoke English and it was easy for me to communicate with the teachers--a major concern. It was very expensive, (private) about 35,000 a month for 4 days a week. (Now in Hawaii we pay $3,000 a YEAR for a Waldorf Steiner school on 20 acres for a 5-day week from 8 to 2:30)

If you haven't already, check out tokyowithkids.com
it covers all of Japan, not just Tokyo and you can find out pretty much anything you need to know about childcare and raising kids in Japan for English speakers.

Now that I am back in the States, my kids are both getting pretty much all English. My husband usually speaks English to them even though I keep telling him to use Japanese. Now I find that I am the one reading to them in Japanese (now that is a sorry state of affairs if you knew how bad my Japanese is!) and playing the tapes I made in Japan. But we are lucky. Here on the Big Island there is a large Japanese community, there are Japanese TV stations (okaasan to ishou, etc). Schools celebrate all the major Japanese holidays and once they get older they can take lessons.

As for bilingualism, my impression is that it takes years for bilingualism to set. Young children learn and forget languages very quickly. My daughter has forgotten almost all the Japanese she had when we left in July this year (she is almost 4). Talk to me again when they are teenagers and see what I have to say about their language ability!

Just keep up the exposure to the target language, frequent trips back to the L2 country helps too.
Best
Sherri

taikibansei · Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Posts: 811 Location: Japan

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Never said you were lazy, Taiki. Implied it, perhaps, but never said it. It doesnt take a lot of time to help your kids be bilingual, just a little every day and a lot of casual support.

I was just amazed at how defensive you got over a simple question. Your very b]first[/b] reply to me started the ball rolling, with a remark about me having my wife handle all Japanese communication in my family. where that came from, I have NO idea. Where DID it come from, by the way? That told a story in and of itself.

Then, you started to backtrack over how and if you ever tried to help your children learn English in Japan. First, they knew virtually nothing. Then, suddenly they had "sufficient foundation" to pick up verbal English in half a year. hmmm......

You said yourself that your response was rude, to me that qualifies as being short tempered and immature. So does snidely suggesting that people have their children read to them. So does taking shots at people over their (assumed on your part) lack of language ability, work, etc.

And you worked at a national university? Really? Standards are slipping here....[