Job Discussion Forums

[anonymous_alaska]

i'm doing a research paper on the american education system for my class so i can be a teacher in the american public school system. it's really interesting.

we excel from kindergarten to fourth grade in all subjects comparable to other countries, even in mathematics.

all of a sudden the reigns are put on. increased standardized tests, more emphasis on grades, less on discovering for ourselves. adherence to textbooks, monopoly on textbooks, holt rhinehardt and winston, mcgraw hill, which are horribly boring.(mathematics teachers from india are shocked when they see how we adhere to textbooks)

this pretty much continues through high school. there's some release of controls through undergrad, but not much.

it's in graduate school where the controls are let loose(but why at this level, and who decides this?). because of this, many foreigners are attracted to our graduate and doctorate programs. the dirty little secret is that 36% of our graduate students are foreigners and a large number become the graduate school teachers.(the chinese in our graduate schools are the ones making a lot of our advances in nano technology and for those americans who say we invented the computer and internet, i'd have to argue with you on that one)

a really interesting point is public school actually seems to control the genius of america. google guys went to a montessori school, the guys heading the genome project, one was almost a high school dropout, the other home schooled.

in my opinion, from 5th grade through high school we're kept pretty stupid(who knows why).

I hope some americans out there investigate themselves because it's a really interesting topic(especially the part about grades coming from the Carnegie unit) and because what i'm writing might be b.s. but this is what i've found.

[juststeven]

Alaska man,
Is the weather outside frightful? Are the Northern Lights giving you a show? Are you reading 'The Cremation of Sam McGee' ? If you are truely living in Alaska, I can relate to you. I lived in Fairbanks and Nome for a few years. I taught at a school in Fairbanks (Tanana) and worked the 'dredges' in the 'golden heart city' and Nome. Why don't you have a job teaching the 'natives' and be happy? The locals are wonderful people and, if it wasn't for that extreme weather, I'd be there! I'm not a 'Sourdough' and don't want to be.

[peabody]

...

[justcolleen]

A very interesting research topic indeed.

[Twisting in the Wind]

[badtyndale]

If I were to be facetious, I might say that the clue is in the question.

However, I wonder to what extent the sentiment of inquiry in this post may be applicable throughout the different nations of the world.

In a previous academic incarnation I had to struggle with a lot of thorny concepts and theories about the social and cultural mechanisms that impacted upon my subject. This necessitated excursions into many 'outside' areas, such as politics, economics, technology etc... All very interesting and, at the same time, very challenging for a number of reasons. One thing I have noticed, though, during the time I've lived in a different country, is how 'easier' it sometimes is to connect with those concepts and theories by virtue of observing 'the exotic'.

Revolutionary -criminal -saviour -philosopher? The 'who's who' of 'what is'.

[moonraven]

Folks in the US are kept stupid and ignorant for the same reason women were kept barefoot and pregnant. To keep them from making waves.

The US government of multinational corporations doesn't find it convenient to have critical thinkers among the citizenry. After all, the US population is nearly 300 million. Imagine 300 million folks who knew that the emperor was not wearing any clothes....

Remember, ALL EDUCATION IS POLITICAL !(Paulo Freire)

[john henry]

To but it bluntly, we are all kept 'ignorant' to keep us from calling b.s. on the whole game.

The whole structure is built to keep 99% of us separated from our money. This has been so well worked out, that us worker bees will adamently fight and defend the very system that keeps us broke and stupid. *Of course, Jesus wants it to be this way, and I better not actually DO anything except pray that it all works out in the end. *Those conservatives/liberals are unpatriotic/bad Americans. etc... I could go on for quite awhile.

Or current educaional system is set up to make a position as a corporate consultant the pinnacle of all existence. I call b.s. on that.

[moonraven]

Here's a nice bit of synchronicity in operation, an article published today:

Published on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
Careful Not to Get Too Much Education...Or You Could Turn Liberal
by Dr. Teresa Whitehurst

I've been giving a lot of thought lately to a conversation I overheard at a Starbucks in Nashville last winter. It was a cold and rainy night as I worked away at my laptop, but the comforting aroma of cappuccino kept me going. My comfort was interrupted, however, by two young men who sat down in upholstered chairs near my table. One was talking, the other listening, in what appeared to be an informal college orientation.

"The only trouble with David Lipscomb (a conservative Christian college nearby) is that old man Lipscomb apparently didn't like football. So we don't have a football team, but we have a great faculty."

"But you do have to be careful about one thing," he said more quietly, coming closer and speaking in hushed tones, "My professor-I have this great professor-told me that you have to be careful not to get too much education, because you could lose your foundation, your core values."

The neophyte nodded solemnly, his eyebrows raised with worry.

"If you get a bachelors," the seasoned student reassured, "you'll probably be okay. But my professor said that when you get a master's, and definitely if you go beyond that, you can lose your values. He said that college students have to be watchful because if you get too much education, you could turn LIBERAL. He's seen it happen to a lot of good Christians."

Both young men looked around again to make sure no-one was listening (unfortunately my hearing is excellent, even when I wish it weren't), and shuddered visibly. They shook their heads at the terrifying fate that could befall them.

I found it hard to concentrate after that, my mind returning again and again to one question: "What would happen to higher education in America if this fear of "too much education", and this presumption that liberal views are the devil's snare rather than the logical consequences of exposure to science, philosophy, literature and diversity, became widespread?"

Sadly, it has already happened, and is growing on college campuses across the US. A recent article by Justin Pope, "Conservatives Flip Academic Freedom Debate: Liberal professors are accused of attempting to indoctrinate students. But some teachers say pupils are trying to avoid new ideas." (AP, 12/25/04) describes this anti-liberal movement, weakly disguised as "balancing" their courses with conservative views:

"Leading the movement is Students for Academic Freedom, with chapters on 135 campuses and close ties to David Horowitz, a onetime liberal campus activist turned conservative commentator. The group posts student complaints on its website about alleged episodes of grading bias and unbalanced, anti-American propaganda by professors - often in classes.

"Instructors "need to make students aware of the spectrum of scholarly opinion," Horowitz said. "You can't get a good education if you're only getting half the story."" The "other half" of the story may not be factual, however, but doctrinal. As the young man in Starbucks said just before he and the incoming freshman got up to leave,

"Even at Lipscomb, you have to be careful what you pay attention to. My professor said that a few faculty members might lead you astray without meaning to, by bringing in ideas that aren't biblical. He said that if you're ever taught anything that sounds questionable, you should talk about it with your minister to see if it's right."

Even as a Christian raised in the evangelical tradition, this shocked me. I suppose it shouldn't have; the Southern Baptist Convention recently considered a proposal to urge all parents to pull their children out of public schools to prevent their exposure to "non-biblical ideas" which, as it happens, run rampant in fields like medicine, physics, archeology, literature, philosophy, history, astronomy, psychology, theology-in short, everything.

What will happen to that innovative American spirit if radical "conservatives" have their way with our educational system? How will the US fare in the global marketplace when certain ideas, or entire fields, become off-limits to students who've been indoctrinated to consult their ministers before learning new information?

What will happen to medical research, for instance, if this movement proceeds to its logical conclusion: outlawing the scientific method, a method notorious for not relying on biblical principles?

I fear men like Horowitz because uncensored education is essential to our democracy, our people's well-being and the nation's long-term survival. The "conservative" movement that he's spearheading reminds me of the news reports coming out of Iran in the months just prior to the conservative religious takeover of that country when its professors were warned to present the "correct" views in class.

This movement pretends to be about "balancing" liberal with conservative views, but the reality is a lot uglier than that. As the conversation I overheard suggests, this movement isn't about balance, it's about censorship-or even better, self-censorship that's easily achieved by frightening students with social rejection, hellfire or both. Either way, scholarship is degraded in the process. According to the article, "many educators, while agreeing that students should never feel bullied, worry that they just want to avoid exposure to ideas that challenge their core beliefs - an essential part of education. Some also fear that teachers will shy away from sensitive topics or fend off criticism by "balancing" their syllabuses with opposing viewpoints, even if they represent inferior scholarship."

Whether through self-censorship or junk education, our country's children are paying the price for the political aggression of the far right. Robert Frost once wrote, "Education is the ability listen to almost anything without losing your temper."

Tempers are short in today's radical "conservative" America, and the emboldened radical right is in no mood to listen to anyone.

Dr. Teresa Whitehurst is a clinical psychologist, author of Jesus on Parenting (2004) and coauthor of The Nonviolent Christian Parent (2004). She offers parenting workshops, holds discussion groups on Nonviolent Christianity, and writes the column, "Democracy, Faith and Values: Because You Shouldn't Have to Choose Just One", which is posted on her website, wwww.JesusontheFamily.org

[mesmerod]

stfu moonrivet

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

I'm a left leaning guy (albeit from Canada, in fact I'm pretty far left leaning for Canadians, so that's you know, uhhh...very left) , but I too think too much education can be a bad thing. People with too much education are often stoopid. Like me, for example...


I did a BA. (English literature and Music History)
I spent a year afterwards living with my parents and working at a store part time while trying to find an entry level position...any entry level position. There were none.

I went back to college and did a programme for advertising writing (because there's obviously a need for marketing communications in the workplace, right?).

I belatedly discovered that I really do not belong in the advertising world because I am not an A type personality (a requirement that I somehow hadn't known- although I have met many, many people who have gone no further in their education than high school who knew it to be an obcious fact).

After a few years of first doing some short term (a few months here and there) writing contracts, I ended up working in retail full-time (originally intended to be a stop-gap job). Then I got bumped up to night crew supervisor (a ton more money and freedom, not having to work with irate business people who want only a certain shade of binder).

But then, because my job kept me pretty much to myself- and my night crew of two, and I was going crazy from pretty much moving skids of merchandise around on a fork lift or pumptruck for ten and a half hours a night and my job was slowly destroying my ability to think, undoing everything I got from my undergrad, I left it. Night jobs keep you sort of tired and worn out all the time, regardless of the amount of sleep you get. I took a university course in the morning after a while, soas to use my brain for something other than figuring out the best way to move skids A, B and C from point A to point B.

I went back to univertsity for a year long programme in Teaching English as a Second Language (to Adults). The thrust of the programme is to teach ESL within my province in Canada.

Are there jobs for people in my province teaching ESL to adults? There's certainly a need for it. But as for full-time jobs that pay you enough to live off (or abut the same as what I earned working full time in my soul destroying night crew manager job, which really wasn't making me rich or anything)...nope!

I then spent a year in university taking Canadian history courses because while volunteering I had been asked a lot of questions about Canada that I really didn't know the answer to, and Japanese language and history in order to get into the JET programme.

I am now in my second year in the JET programme and have recontracted for a third year (three years is normally the maximum for JET). It will be the beginning of the third year before my finances are back at the level they were when I left my night crew job. But there are still more student loans.

After finishing the JET programme, I am seriously contemplating another year at college, this time in publishing.

If there are no jobs teaching ESL to adults in my province, and my province has more immigrants than any of the others, I can work in the publishing field as an editor of education materials (including ESL texts) or fiction.


By looking at me as an example we can see that really stoopid guys have too much education.

Only a stoopid guy would have not given up and gone back to some sort of retail manager position, which would at least mean having a stable job. Plus, if I hadn't spent so much money in school getting training for jobs which do not exist, are totally unsuited to me, or are for the most part only available for personal friends who have a spouse who can support them, then I wouldn't be looking at going back to Canada ten years after having finished my BA and going back to school again and continuing to compete for entry level jobs with people who have just graduated.

[Twisting in the Wind]

GambatebingbangBOOM,

Did I get your moniker right? You made some good points. I really liked what you had to say about not "knowing" you weren't a type A personality before going into advertising. IMO they should do more in colleges and universities about testing people's temperaments and placing people in appropriate careers. I floundered in high school not taking appropriate courses, and wasting time being interested in careers I wouldn't have been suited for temperamentally. In college and afterward I took some tests that showed the caeers I would be suited for and finally, I stopped wasting all this time lamenting about being a nurse, for example, and just never getting it right. Well, the reason I could never get it "right" was because I am not at all a details-oriented person, nor am I particularly good in the sciences.
Once I got some testing did I finally settle into teaching and writing and have been very happy (overall) at it.

[omeletteman]

Cynical, don't feel like writing a lot answer:


Smart people don't buy Nike's while eating McDonalds and sipping Starbucks in their SUV.

[homersimpson]

[ChinaMovieMagic]

CHECK OUT the Website/On-line Book

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

The Underground History
of American Education
A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation
Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling
COMPLETE AND UNEXPURGATED!


When have you seen notices like these for AN EDUCATION BOOK?



"A work of breathtaking scholarship and encyclopedic scope."
-Adam Robinson, Co-founder, The Princeton Review,
author, What Smart Students Should Know


"Gatto's voice is strong and unique. I loved this book!"
-Thomas Moore, Care of the Soul


"Gatto is a singular antidote to stale convention."
-David Guterson, Snow Falling On Cedars


"I give this book a standing ovation!"
-Christiane Northrup, Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom


"Brilliant Work!"
-Laissez Faire Books


"Your Ideas Are Splendid!"
-Christopher Lasch


Read the book and see for yourself.