Job Discussion Forums

[Trojan Horse]

Hi

Instead of forking out for a travel guide, how about advertising and seeing if you can find a fellow traveller, someone who is on your wave-length to travel with you? You sound well-traveled so I think you have the commonsense to avoid obviously dangerous situations, etc. I do think there is (more) safety in numbers. If you go into a disco on your own ,take a taxi home on your own, wander about a park on your own...

I have a Jewish Moroccan friend who looks part Berber, part Black. He studied in St. Petersburg for 4 years (left about 6 years ago). He loved it there. He would reinforce the positive comments you got earlier re womenfolk. He seems to have lived the life of Riley there in fact. He did once get into a difficult situation when his girlfriend was grabbed by a gangster type at a disco who wanted her to go off with him. My friend intervened and this guy pulled out a gun and thrust it on his forehead. They finished the night by becoming the best of friends but frankly I don't think I could have coped!

Maybe things are worse these days what with increased terrorism etc but both he and his (official) girlfriend who is a dark Spanish girl would have looked very foreign in Russia and both loved it there.

Alexandra

[Travel Zen]

I'm not up on who Riley is, but it sounds sweet.

I seriously cannot pass up on Russia! If I'm doing a tour of the region, I really have to go there. Way too many fascinating things to see.

I will have to agree and say that I need another person, preferably Russian, to go with. If it means a tour guide or two, then....

[bobs12]

Well...

I hope you don't think we've been trying to scare you.

If you're dead set on the trip, looking to take someone along, and willing to part with a few $'s, it might not be a bad idea to post your itinerary here and see if anyone from the teaching community would go with you for a part or the whole of your trip.

I don't think anyone would mind the posting, most people here are pretty adventurous, and I think the pajority will speak good enough Russian for any situation you'll encounter. With a few greens I'm sure you could persuade some people to take a few days off work, or someone might know a reliable local.

Another place is http://www.virtualtourist.com

Just an idea.

[GedKealmen]

Well, I'm Mexican. If you put me in Los Cabos for a few weeks I'll be probably a skin-tone 8 and if I don't get sun for 6 months... a 4 (considering a scale of 1-10 where one is albino white and ten is the darkest African skin tone) which is damn sure dark enough for racist stimulation.

I'm going to Moscow soon (arriving, I'd say, about at skin-tone 5 and dropping to a min of 3-4 if I don't get sun in the next 6 months,) I'll be working with BKC and I have received the strongest assurances from them about the non-racism-targeted life of hispanic expats.

Soon means in 4-6 weeks, so stay alert for updates. I went to China in the middle of the SARS epidemic, I'll go to Russia in the middle of the terrorism stuff and skinhead rush.

Consider this: to err on the side of caution is wise, but to allow caution to deprive you of worthy opportunities is both foolish and cowardly. Interpretation is subjet to each person's own priorities and opinions... this comment is only made for each one of us to judge one's self... not others.

BEST YEAR'S END TO ALL; may the new year be better for all (yeah... yeah... wishful thinking, I know... so what? That's the point of these naively utopic wishes... ain't it?)

[Travel Zen]

Thanks bobs12 for the link. Very informative.

[angstrom]

Yes, as we usher in the new year I would like to say to travel zen that you should go to russia. I've lived in Russia for three years and though I have heard stories of woe and despair, I have also heard inspiring stories about minorities coming to Russia. When I was teaching there, there was a black teacher who just blended in so well. I think it all had to do with attitude. He walked confidently and didn't seem anxious at all. He had that look of defiance in his eyes and he just seemed so diplomatic and charismatic. So if you're going to go it alone, I suggest you walk around looking confident and unfazed. Good luck!

[Travel Zen]

I've noticed that.

I'm in India now and as far as I know, the only African person in the city! (I'm not, but it sure seems that way). So I get alot of stares, and people positioning themselves in restaurants and buses to stare and wonder. Cars stop and people point. And this is India, where many people are far darker in complexion than I am. I can only imagine China and Russia.

To look unfazed is difficult and takes practice. To be confident when it seems like the whole world is looking at you also takes a strong will ( or an uncaring attitute).

[bobs12]

Sorry to put a dull tone into this, but there's nothing cowardly about being cautious.

For one to allow caution to deprive him of worthy opportunities is certainly unfortunate, but not 'foolish or cowardly'. For one to allow rashness to deprive him of his life or health is both unfortunate and foolish.


As for inspiring stories about minorities... I hate to be a killjoy in the festive season of ESL teachers encouraging international relations, but be sure that I wish only the best for TZ.

I know of only two Africans in St. Petersburg. I knew (personally) one who lives and works here with no problems. I know of another (not personally) who was lucky to escape a vicious knife attack with his life. Some are lucky, some are not.

I get the idea, TZ, that you are coming as a tourist, not as a settler, which immediately tilts the odds of having a good time, and an adventure memorable for the right reasons, in your favour.

I'd just advise you to keep your caution within reach at all times, and be prepared to use a bit of cowardice if you see the need. Throwing caution to the wind altogether seems to be what gets most people into trouble.

As a well-travelled person I'm sure you know as well or better as anyone how to spot trouble a hundred yards down the street, but just remember that in Russia a lot of the cues (at least the ones that I'm used to) that tell you something is going on are different, or harder to pick out from the background.

He who turns and runs away, lives to see another day

[GedKealmen]

Thanks for your input Bob; as I quite clearly said in my previous post interpretation was open to each person's priorities and opinions and the comment was made for each person to apply inwardly, not on others. Basically, that means that it's a completely subjective opinion and we are all free to agree or disagree depending on our own personal priorities and considerations.

In the end, decisions are made after considering whatever sides we can see and weighing an option against another. The weight of caution and the weight of worthy opportunities simply depend on the importance we assign to each thing, and we all have our own opinions of what may be a "worthy opportunity." Some people end up skydiving while others safely and comfortably watch from their couches on colourful little screens and wonder what it feels like and how someone could be so crazy.

Therefore, the foolishness and cowardice are basically what I would feel about myself if I ended up being the latter of the two cases above but I'd never imply that another person with different priorities would be either foolish or cowardly in that case.

By the way... no, I haven't done any skydiving, yet.

[dajiang]

Just take care Travel Zen.

It always helps when you speak a bit of Russian. And when possible go with friends.
Dont get caught in a corner late at night anywhere by yourself.
But this advice goes for anyone really.

In the larger cities of Moscow and Petersburg you can see more and more colours on the streets, so people get used to it. But in other cities where there arent many people anyway, let alone tourists, let alone a black one, prepare yourself.

So, yeah, go for it, but keep your eyes open. Remember, learn some Russian, and you'll meet some excellent people along the way.

Shastlivaya puti

[kazachka]

It's so disappointing, but the many of the comments on racism are,unfortunately true. I even remember when I was in Krasnodar 15 years ago how people would stop on the street to rub a black guy's skin to see if the color came off! In Moscow, racial profiling is alive and well esp.in the metro. Most of the time, it's the darker Caucasian types getting asked for documents. I saw racism bear it's ugly head a yr ago when my Yakut friend and I were on our way home after celebrating the new year. About a half dozen drunk guys approached us and began to make a pass or 2. Seeing that this was not such a cool situation that could become downright dangerous, I moved(we were in the metro). When I moved, she tried to rebuff the advances from one of the guys and when she did, she basically got the crap beat out of her. Yes, lots of anti-Asian comments also flew from this "nice gentleman." As we rolled into the next station, my friend motioned to an officer for help and he did come toward us. Some of the losers tried to bolt, but they picked the wrong chick to run from! I may not have been able to beat them up,but they sure as hell weren't going to get away!I'm a marathon runner and went after them enough to point them out to the cops so they could be caught. 4 were detained and most important, we caught the guy that beat up my friend.
We then spent the next 12 hours filling out paperwork,giving statements etc.......The whole thing was awful. I do remember the expression on the guy's face who beat my friend when he found out I was an American-he panicked because he thought he'd be in more trouble. No one knew until we had to show ID at the police station. Anyhow,when it was all said and done, my friend did have the right to sue for financial retribution. SHe did it because she felt the guy should be punished,and no we didn't care that the was an 18 yr old kid from Saransk without Moscow registration and would likely be sent back. However, subtle attitudes taken by the police hinting that perhaps she had done something to deserve this were dropped. We both knew that was not true, but again it's the whole "the police will not protect you if you are a minority thing." She eventually got a small payment , but it's little compensation for the indignity she suffered. Personally, if I were now white, I don't think I'd want to live in Moscow. It sounds awful to have to say that, but it's the unfortunate case. On another note, I don't want to make it seem like ALL Russians are racist. Every society has it's neo-Nazi loser types and racists. I have many close friends in Russia and have lived there off and on for nearly 15 years. I can honestly say that the people I know aren't the types to judge someone based on ethnicity. In fact, they are some of the most caring, unselfish, and hospitible people I have ever known.

[kazachka]

"NOT" white
kan't tipe......

[Travel Zen]

It's not just bad, it's an ungoverned land. Hard to imagine a place where you are attacked based on ethnicity and the police just stand by or worse, say that it's your fault for provoking it.

Better take a UN platoon with me, just in case I want to walk down the street in broad daylight.....sheesh. I'll still go

[bobs12]

Just in response to Kazachka's post, not a contribution to the safety issue.

In St. P. I have a part-Korean friend, Grisha, who originally comes from Volgograd. There, he has been beaten up quite a few times by police. His uncle is a local superintendent.

In St. P, we were out with some of his 'friends'- some Russians and the American girl through whom I'd met him. There were a good few of us standing outside a theatre, mainly guys with one or two girls. Two drunks carrying holdalls with building equipment (trowels and long, ragged-ended aluminium spirit levels) came buy and roughly pushed past Grisha.

I don't remember if Grisha said anything, but one of the builders turned and started to swear at him. I couldn't make out wht was being said as my Russian was poor at the time, but the situation was clearly threatening. I stood back until the builder guy (bizarrely) poked Grisha in the eye with the stem of a rose he was carrying, then began brandishing his spirit level. Grisha seemed to be either standing his ground or rooted to the spot.

At that point, my natural reaction was to get ready for what normally happened in similar situations back home. There, if someone is being threatened and there are enough of his friends or sympathetic bystanders to physically surround him or surround the 'attacker', that's the most effective way to calm the situation without it coming to blows.

If that doesn't work (if the attacker is too drunk, stoned or stupid to realise he is outnumbered by people who really hate bigots) and the thug persists, he'll wake up a few days later wishing he hadn't. I've heard of teeth being removed and left stuffed up nostrils.

I took a step toward Grisha, looking round to see who was taking up which position, and what was to be he general plan- defend or dismember. With so many young, fit guys standing around, I really expected that it would all be over before the stupid foreigner could throw in his tuppenceworth, and that I would be left looking silly.

I was horrified to see two take a step back, and one even turn away. The others just looked on impassively. They weren't going to stand up for their 'friend', not even just to look tough in front of the girls.

What shocked me even more was the look of confusion on the lead drunk's face when I took up my stance beside Grisha. I guessed he hadn't expected anybody to challenge his right to harass an Asian.

I hadn't been in Russia long, and I was still in the throes of culture shock. This combined wuth my disgust at the whole situation- the drunks, Grisha's friends, the simple fact it was happening- to make me a bit braver than I would normally have been (I'm a coward really).

I shouted, blurting out the first thing that came into my head, hoping that it wouldn't come out so foreign as to aggravate matters. The words that came out were, "ne nado, ne nado" which, fortunately, were appropriate enough and simple enough to give the message without my accent being detected.

The drunks went on their way, swearing and gesticulating and seemingly very dissatisfied at the fact the Asian had friends. Literally within a second, conversation resumed as if nothing had happened. The two American girls standing not far from me wore 'what the f$$$ just happened?' expressions. I was stupefied with disbelief, and poor Grisha was still standing dead still. We both took a good half hour to calm down, each for our own reasons.

Surreally, conversation went on the whole evening without a mention of the event.

Sorry for the long winded tale of woe. That just happened to be one of my first and most lasting impressions from the city. The thought that these people wouldn't raise a hand to look after a friend in what would have been an easy and probably very satisfying manoeuvre sickened me. I wondered what hope strangers had.

[expatella_girl]