Job Discussion Forums

[ShapeSphere]

This has been covered before in bits & bobs on differing threads across many forums. But I want to get to the heart of the matter if possible. This subject might also be relevant now, as it's the time of the year when many of us are seeking or renewing contracts.

Chris Crossley on the Newbie Forum offered some useful advice on asking questions about a contract ("Any questions? Lots of them"). It should be stressed my post is not a veiled attack on him, but an attempt to get more opinions & advice on this delicate subject.

Out of interest, is there anybody who has got a teaching job after asking many questions about their contract?

I am in China, and find some of the questions on Chris's list reasonable, but a Chinese boss appears to despise people who ask too many questions. They are looking for a yes man/woman and a person devoid of initiative.

Have teachers had experiences of which queries are acceptable or not acceptable?

Generally I enquire about class sizes, teaching materials, overtime rate (as some contracts withhold this data!), etc. This is a genuine show of interest in their school as opposed to entering employment 'blind' and unprepared. My career is a profession and not something to be taken lightly. I also tend to ask the less important questions first and build up, as I think this is the preferred method of approach by the Chinese.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[7969]

[limits601]

to go along with 7969, i have had the same problems. The more questions i ask these schools, the less i hear from them. I dunno what im gonna do come contract renewal time. I wanna go but no1 will take me.

[hesterprynne]

Before I came to China, I was able to use this thread to contact several then-current and former teachers at my school. They set my mind at ease about many things. UNFORTUNATELY, some of those selling points have changed since I arrived at the school. But at least my introduction to China was not as stressful as the experiences some teachers had at their new schools. You could post a query here or search for that school here. Sorry if I am stating the obvious.

[lagerlout2006]

In my experience how they reply to questions is an indication of what they will be like later...At this school I lined the job up months in advance-a record for me. Whenever I had a question I would get a wishy-washy reply or no answer at all. It worried me but I wanted to come here for several reasons---and lets just say it was a mistake...

My other jobs -which were fine-the FAO was always quick and honest when I asked anything. And they were honest---not always just trying to put a good spin on things-as they do here...

So a job that cuts off communication when you ask something is not to be trusted anyway...Just one thing---we dont mean asking a daily barrage of questions -that might scare anyone off...Also I think you should ask about the teaching itself. I have seen some teachers ONLY ask endless questions about benefits...

[Roger]

I owe this valuable insight to my many American and Canadian colleagues: ask the school to provide the email of one of their foreign teachers.
I never knew that you could do that until I read this on this forum. This is probably the best advice.

Many schools refuse to oblige, though.

Those who do offer an address or two are on tenterhooks occasionally. I found this out when I enquired at a training centre; the woman gave me two phone numbers and immediately instructed me "not to discuss salary level and work time".

Interestingly, I pointed out to her I would not be amenable to too many timetable modifications; she cheerfully told this to her assistant, but it was a nice show with no meaning: her foreign teachers complained to me that what troubled them the most was the constant and sudden changes made to their weekly timetables.

[7969]

just to be clear, the questions i ask every school (in descending order) are:

1. what textbooks do you use?
2. what english level are the students i'll be responsible for?
3. my timetable?
4. ask about the accommodation.
5. may i contact a current or former teacher?

i usually never ask what the benefits are because they're usually laid out up front anyway (if they're not of course i'll ask). and most benefits are rather standard anyway. if any school is either afraid, or too lazy to answer these few questions that i ask, then i dont want to work for them anyway. and many schools don't answer. however, one school that i did want to work for, answered them, but two weeks after i asked and by which time i had already found my current job, which is a decent job.

[ShapeSphere]

Thanks for all the replies, they are all very useful and confirm that the Chinese really do not like people asking questions. Any questions!

It just shows that we must be more circumspect in our style and method. I will still try to ask the right questions, because frankly I don't want to work for a school that is hiding something, but it's probable that I will have to tread ever so delicately and ultimately accept that they won't answer everything. I must adapt to their culture.

In my opinion, the asking and answering of questions displays professionalism and during my time in England (non-teaching) & Germany (teaching) - I visibly noticed that employers were impressed and pleased that a prospective candidate had the foresight to prepare and ask difficult queries. It demonstrated ambition and a thirst for knowledge.

In England, for a few years, I actually was the interviewer and asked the questions. Who impressed me the most and got the job? The ones who didn't just sit there meek and silent, but displayed some energy & spirit, and made me respond to their incisive line of enquiry.

That's the difference in culture of course. It's funny (as in 'peculiar') that before I came to China, I had visions of being awed and dazzled by Chinese culture and anticipated learning so much that would stand me in good stead for later. Actually, the more information I unravel here, then the less of it I respect and conversely the more I respect English culture and the way we do things.

[KES]

This is not meant in any way as passing judgment, only relating personal observations.

Many Chinese I have dealt with consider signing a contract as the preamble, rather than the conclusion, of negotiations.

This is not done with malice, but simply with the view that a contract is but one item (and not a terribly important one at that) in the whole process of negotiations and that the negotiations (from their view) never really end.

If they can wring a concession from you six hours, days, or months after the contract is signed, so much the better. It isn't (from their view) that they are reneging, but that they are simply "better" negotiators.

I have signed contracts with some Chinese only to very soon discover that they never had the ability, let alone the intent, of fulfilling the contract.

For westerners, this can be particularly frustrating. However, among many Chinese, this is simply viewed business as usual.

For many Chinese, the time to negotiate in serious is when their negotiating "partner" is most vulnerable. If you pay workers to carry your furniture up 12 flights of stairs, the best time to negotiate the price they REALLY wanted, is of course, after stopping on the sixth floor. And they will do this without shame or hesitation.

Getting the "partner" committed is the primary consideration in many a Chinese business transaction. That may require over promising, under delivering, or any combination thereof.

After the "partner" is committed, and hopefully in an exposed position, that�s the time to start gaining advantages and concessions - regardless of any contracts that may have been signed.

This is not in the least unique to the ELT business in China. It is, quite frequently, simply how business is conducted.

For teachers arriving with little cash reserves, no experience in China, and lacking an understanding of how many Chinese view the negotiating process, there can be a surprise waiting.

That is not to say there are no Chinese who "get it" about western attitudes regarding the sanctity of contracts. However, most I have encountered simply do not attach the same importance to a contract as their western counterparts.

From my experience, all the provisions, penalties, and poison pills any legal dream team can shoehorn into a contract are probably, at the end of the day, not terribly useful. That is, unless you are financially, emotionally and legally prepared for protracted litigation in China.

I am sure there are myriad reasons why this outlook is, in my experience, quite commonplace. I'll leave that discussion to those with more insight into the history and culture of China.

Good luck and safe holidays to all.

[cj750]

So my brother..all deals in China start with a trick bag...havent heard that one in a while... have you?

[ShapeSphere]

[7969]

[Talkdoc]

KES makes some excellent points. What I would add is that the renegotiation process can be a two-way street and you should treat it as such in the presence of inequity.

My former employer in Shenyang attempted to manipulate an additional eight hours of work from me per week during my first month there � they disingenuously (and in an manner that was obviously pre-meditated) attempted to redefine � 8 hours of included prep time� as an additional eight hours of inside computer and office work. I, of course, refused to go along with the program, arguing that was not within the terms of the contract, but not without first having accrued an enormous amount of bad will towards the school. Well, a few months later, they needed me to create curricula for 9 levels of English classes for a big corporate contract (one that I had actually won for them through a demo class against three other schools). As the function of curriculum development was not part of my contract, I simply used this as an opportunity to renegotiate it and, in essence, reduced my teaching load by the very same eight hours they had previously tried to extract from me. How I did that was by setting a market value for curriculum development that was twice that of teaching and multiplying the total hours they needed me for the new assignment by 2 and then deducting those hours from the 20 total contractual hours. So, as they needed me for four hours per week for curriculum development, 20 - (4x2) = 12. It was a neat trick and it worked because they had very little choice in the matter. Exploitation of vulnerability cuts both ways. In addition, they had to reimburse me for 50 percent of my new mattress and install cable TV in the upstairs bedroom. Whether valid or not, their perception was that I was the only person for the job; so I took advantage of it - in retaliation (mostly) for the hat trick they tried to pull on me my first month in China. Back home, it would never occur to me to attempt to renegotiate a contact while it was still in effect BUT when in Rome...

Regarding questions, I asked plenty before accepting my first job (to no real avail) and virtually none before accepting my second one (I just wanted to get the hell out of Shenyang, away from the student mill and move to a warmer, cleaner environment). I did refuse to sign the initial contract at my first school because it included a clause in the last paragraph which basically invalidated the entire contract � something to the effect that they could renege on any of the terms at any time for any reason. I don�t know why anyone in his right mind would sign such a contract but apparently many do. When I objected I was informed that the school would most likely not agree but then, several days later, I received an e-mail informing me that they had accepted all the revisions I had made (of course, as KES pointed out, it really didn�t matter anyway because they had every intention of �renegotiating� it the moment I signed on the dotted line). But even at public universities, salaries and terms are negotiable if they want you badly enough. I have been asked to renew at my current position and I�ve made it clear that I would only do so if a few terms are met (essentially, I want my contract renewed at the current expiration date for one year so there is no interruption in salary and I want a few extra RMB per month. They agreed to the renewal date and informed me that �salary was negotiable� even though, apparently, it wasn�t before I arrived. Why the sudden change? Because they were fully aware that I was anxious to leave Shenyang and as it was late July, they knew most universities had already hired for the academic year - so I had no negotiating power at that time. Now I do because the request to renew is coming from them and they are eager to retain me. Now they are perfectly aware that I have plenty of time to shop. This is all something of a game really and you shouldn�t be afraid to play it. And, once you learn the �rules,� it�s not that difficult).

The problem with asking questions and even with talking with former and current teachers is that, more often than not, you have to learn to read between the lines. The young woman I spoke to before accepting my current position was just finishing her contract and had been at the university for three years, so I initially considered her a reliable and valid source of information. However, during a second conversation, she informed me that she was leaving the school to attend a master's degree program in the states and had every intention of returning back to the school in one year after completing the program - as, for one thing, her boyfriend is here. So, her information was actually quite biased in favor of the school. She distorted a great deal of information (such as the average cost of the utility bill) and glamorized the living accommodations, among other things. She didn't proffer any information and her responses to loaded or sensitive questions were highly measured and calculated. The second person I spoke to also had a vested interest in a providing me with a good review. So, I needed to weigh both sets of responses against my awareness that neither person had any intention of being truly critical; objectively or not. So by all means you should interview current teachers; but you absolutely need to consider the source. The school is obviously not going to provide a prospective teacher, one they really want, with bad references. If possible, insist you receive the name of a former teacher � one who isn�t just taking a sabbatical of sorts.

Doc

[struelle]

Kes does make good points, but I have a bone to pick with him about exlusively seperating the "Chinese" or "Western" styles of negotiations and attitudes to contracts..

In other words, the negotiating process is more complex than what Kes is portraying.

Recently, it was brought to my attention that one of my former Chinese colleagues sued a Western-owned (but Chinese managed) school on the grounds of unfair dismissal. She was pretty adamant about the fact that she got screwed, and she dug up the sections of Chinese Law by herself which supported her case. She also hired a lawyer, and with his help, later WON the case. I think it was in the Intermediate People's Court.

Throughout the battle, which was long and protracted, this Chinese colleague stuck to her guns and inisted her contract was a legal and binding document, which most certainly had been violated.

Although this may have seemed a very "Western" approach, these actions were in large part motivated by face. That is to say, this teacher didn't lose too much salary, but she felt trampled on by the school and was going to fight back with all she had. Given her connections, some with Party members, that really helped her win the case.

Steve

[tofuman]

Nice going, doc