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matttheboy · Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 854 Location: Valparaiso, Chile

There have been a fair few posts in recent weeks stating that Dave�s is an ESL/teaching site and therefore political threads are unwelcome. While I have more than a little sympathy for this view point, especially as the political threads are so repetitive, I�m not completely in agreement because the threads can be used in a teaching context. I do find it quite annoying, however, when posts that are genuinely about teaching are pushed to the bottom of the pile because someone has (re)started an argument about the evil-doings of Bush/Bush�s dog/bin Laden/blah blah blah. So this post is about teaching and how to use the tedious political arguments whilst teaching.

I have, for some time, been using many of the threads in my classes. I sometimes tie them in with a book that I would recommend to anyone teaching adults of lower-intermediate and above called �Taboos and Issues�. It deals with controversial issues such as religion, sexual harassment, torture, bribery and corruption amongst many others in a provocative but constructive way with exercises based around the themes. I�m sure many of you have used it already. Some of the topics can lead to political discussions and often result in conversations about the US and its policies around the world.

I print out some of the posts from this forum and use them in class in a number of ways (this is not an exhaustive list by any means):

� As a general conversation topic-each group gets a post and discusses the points it raises
� For comprehension-with some of the longer posts you can set questions to check if the Ss understood what the poster meant
� For grammar checks-Ss get to check the posts for grammatical and spelling mistakes
� Vocab-slang comes up a lot (US and British), technical terms, political terms etc. All quite useful
� Students get to read a whole thread and decide who�s the loopiest poster giving reasons why they chose who they did

A couple of weeks after teaching some English idioms and slang, one student said a certain poster was �nutty as a fruit cake�. Another student agreed and said the poster had written �a load of old clap-trap�. I like it when students remember what I teach them�

There are such wide ranging views on this forum and I think that students appreciate getting to read �real� opinions that are not very often shown on TV or in the English language newspapers that they can get hold of.

dyak · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 630

What a great idea! Recycling at its best! Cool

ChinaMovieMagic · Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 2102 Location: YangShuo

Yes...in the spirit of 1st-stage BrainStorming...

*What about developing a NETWORK of teachers interested in this approach*

*What about having our students communicate w/each other Internationally on these issues?

*What about having our own section on this Forum, relating to ideas/experiences/feedback/projects etc.?

It can be quite liberating for English learners to read Forum posts. The language is in Living Color! Even 3-Dimensional!!!

Also great for promoting Critical Thinking. For example, the Discussions regarding Adoptions/Orphanages--on the China off-topic section--can produce BOTH heat as well as light.

Our English students can select a writer and see their positions/discussions on various issues.
Gradually, the students come to have a sense of the positions/writing-thinking style of the various writers.
Exercises can be developed ...in which the students try to guess whether a piece of writing is from Writer X or Writer Y.

I know there's great potential here...and I'm quite interested in helping develop a Network of teachers/students.

matttheboy · Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 854 Location: Valparaiso, Chile

Interesting ideas CMM, i especially like the one about students trying to guess who's writing what by recognising a person's style of writing; i hadn't thought of that.

I would like to take this opportunity to ask Moonraven what she thinks of these ideas as it is her that posts the majority of political messages but claims to be a teacher. I am genuinely interested to hear what such an experienced and intelligent teacher has to say. I would like to keep this thread on topic though, if possible.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

This experienced and intelligent teacher doesn't find it appropriate that another poster impinges on her freedom to respond to the posts that interest her.

This experienced and intelligent teacher finds it reprehensible that you are using posts from this forum in your classes without asking permission from their authors.

This experienced and intelligent teacher finds that to be an act of bad faith.

This experienced and intelligent teacher thinks that using material of this sort in class may, in your mind, justify the time you spend on Dave's--but it doesn't qualify as class preparation.

This experienced and highly intelligent teacher believes that you are committing an act of parasitism. And that you are trying to justify sheer laziness as creative lesson planning.

This experienced and intelligent teacher thinks that by doing what you have done you have violated the social contract implicit in participation in this forum. (Doesn't anyone remember the hell that one poster caught aafter posting part of a CV that he/she had received in response to a job announcement and then proceeding to make fun of it?)

This experienced and highly intelligent teacher--if she were your supervisor--would probably give you a warning. And if you continued to violate the privacy of folks who particpate on this forum with the expectation that it is a closed set, she would probably fire you.

I hope that my response meets with your satisfaction.

dyak · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 630

matttheboy · Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Posts: 854 Location: Valparaiso, Chile

Er, i don't include the name of the poster in my lessons. Posters are referred to as 'Poster A, B,C' etc. I don't think it would matter anyway as i pretty sure your real name is not "moonraven' so you're fairly anonymous.

If you are trying to suggest that this forum is not for general viewing then i contend that you are very much mistaken. Anyone in the world can post on this site which to me makes what is written here public property. From what i can make out through the haze of hatred in your posts, you are for freedom of expression and against private ownership so please stop trying make words on a public internet forum private property. If you wish to copyright your messages i suggest you hire a lawyer.

I plan my lessons and use posts from this site as class material in the same way that people use newspaper cuttings as class material. I don't agree with your contention that lesson preparation=laziness.

If you were my supervisor i would have left my job a long long time ago.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

Matt,

YOU are the one who INSISTED--by leaving me messages on THREE different boards--on hearing my opinion.

I gave you my opinion about what you are doing.

In my opinion, what you are doing in unethical, and I do not intend to change my mind in regard to that.

Regardless of this being a public forum, it is privately owned.

If folks wanted their privacy violated, all of our real names and related biographical data would be published here.

It matters not a whit to me whether you agree with me or not, Matt. I neither started this thread nor would do what you describe doing--however, if you find the posts on this forum to be superior to articles available in other venues, that says a lot about your lack of standards for teaching material.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

moonraven,

What is the difference between using posts here (without citing people's names) for a discussion like mattheboy does vs. ripping lesson plans off sites like Eigotown? In my opinion, nothing.

Is matt lazy in either case? That's up for judgment, but if he has to put some effort into cutting and pasting several comments to fit his lesson designs (fairly extensive, I might add), I would dare say that it is MORE work than blindly following what you see on actual lesson planning sites. (By the way, will you avoid using what this privately-owned public site offers from the Teacher Training Forum, Hint of the Day, Pronunciation Power, etc.? If you don't, how can you see it as not being hypocritical?)

You can't have it both ways. Matt maintains privacy. What if he copies and pastes words from famous speeches or letters that have been unearthed and stored in museums or other archives? Is THAT unethical, too? I can't see why, even if the people are still alive. So what is the difference between that practice and using what us commoners write here?

If you are afraid of him "unethically" stealing words from your posts and using them in class, don't post anymore, or be VERY careful about what you write.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

I use nothing from this site in the classroom.

I have no reason to do so, given that my classes are student-centered, not canned.

I would not want Matt or anyone else using the content of my e-mails in his/her classroom either. And I don't see a heck of a lot of difference between that and grabbing stuff off this forum and presenting it in a completely different context in the classoom.

His thread clearly shows that he has a bias (tedious political posts is not neutral language), and I also have a problem with teachers pushing their own biases at students in the classroom, as I feel that it is unethical to do so.

I question the sincerity of your particapation--seems to me that you are only interested in arguing for the sake of argument.

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

marblez · Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 248 Location: Canada

Sorry, but I don't agree with this. Unless you get explicit permission from the author, I do not believe it is right to reproduce in your classroom. I'm not sure about the legal terms, but I do not think it is ethical.

I have used numerous comments from posters here in an essay I produced about visual aids and ESL teaching. I stated numerous times that this was the purpose, and that if anyone contributed, they would be cited in my references. I did that.

If permission is asked and granted, go ahead. If not, please don't. It is legal to take a picture of a stranger and put it on the internet. Is it right? That varies between individuals.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Teacher in Rome · Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 1286

As an illustration of "authentic" writing, I think that using discussion boards could be useful for students. Would you edit out the more glaring spelling / grammar errors, or leave the text as it stands?

I'd be slightly worried that you hadn't asked permission from the posters, given that you would be reproducing their words and ideas. One way you could get round this would be to direct students to the url of the particular thread. If, say, you were doing a lesson on one of the themes on this board, you could prepare students first for the vocabulary etc, then direct them to the url, then do a follow-up discussion, or some work on writing skills. That way you are using the discussion board as a resource, or web-quest exercise.