Job Discussion Forums

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

Based on what I have been reading here and my personal experiences, I am forced to conclude that we can be held in China against our will. Those who know otherwise, please inform.

Here is a scenario that probably has happened and certainly could:

An FT has a dispute with an institution and decides to leave. The essence of the dispute is that the employer has not fulfilled the contract, thereby voiding it. Of course the employer denies that the contract was not fulfilled and, therefore, voided. The employer demands a one thousand dollar penalty from the FT and files a notice with the PSB that the FT owes money. The PSB enter the info into a computer which officials at any airport access before allowing the foreigner to leave.

Once the flagged name of the FT appears, he/she is prevented from leaving the country, now being held in China by the PSB based on an unsettled business dispute.

Is this a possible scenario? If so, any idea how the FTs embassy might become involved in such a matter or how a problem like this might be resolved?

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

embassies normally dont get involved in these matters. they can recommend a lawyer for you and come to see you in jail, but that's about it. how might it be resolved? i have no idea.....

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

This scenario is slightly over the top but it does have realistic ingredients.

To begin with, schools have for years cheated FTs. They can withhold your pay and even claim penalty with total impunity as they are above the law, not in theory but in reality.
So, why would a school tip off the PSB? No need to do so. The cops are lazy bums sitting in their aircon office and are not interested in extra hassles ("work"). You can test my contention: go to a police station and ask them to change your fake 50 kuai banknote into smaller bills. They will inspect it, then say, "bu hao yise...zhe she jiade... bu keneng yong!" You will get it back... Where in the world does this happen too? I tell you: nowhere but in the PR of C!

But you are on target with your fear about computers being used by the authorities. The latest newsletter from Dezshira - always a reliable source of vital business info - has it that the authorities are now running computer checks on expats earning an income in China, and they are coordinating their searches with ALL parties involved. Thus, the PSB, the tax bureau and your employer will in future exchange relevant data to make sure you have paid your tax... If they can do this, they certainly can extend the exchange of information on other issues as well, involving the border checkpoints, for instance.
I am NOT claiming we all have to pay taxes now... there still are locales that fall between the threads of the net. And there are other possibilities as well. I am saying, though, that they have started in earnest, and will soon cover the whole nation.
Perhaps when the exchange of data is perfected enough they will exonerate us from the need to get a release letter - it would be so much easier for them to just ask our employers online...

ouyang · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 193 Location: on them internets

tofuman, I think the central issue in your question is how often the "one thousand dollar penalty clause" in chinese standard contracts is enforced. You can readily assume that it has been enforced more times against party B than party A. However, during my relatively short time here I've never heard of anyone having to pay it.

I think this is due to the fact that most people claim a death in the family or some other excuse to leave. The chinese respect a good lie and sincere liars, but I would expect them to be quite ruthless against foreigners who challenge them directly.

A teacher did tell me that she was forced to return to the city of her former employer, apologize, and pay some unfair bills before she could legally take a job with another chinese school. And this was due to the sort of computer record you mentioned. She also told me that paying the maximum 5000 RMB expired visa fine is quite common, and that employers can have your visa cancelled if you flee. But I don't know if her experience is still relevant, she's been here a long, long time.

If a teacher has ever won a $1,000 penalty judgement against a school, I think he or she should be entered into a Foreign Experts Hall of Fame or be given some honor to recognize having accomplished the impossible.

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

parvati_overdrive · Joined: 09 Jan 2005 Posts: 69

Dude -

You may have some luck by doing a runner via Lao (Boten is only xing open). There are a few km between the Chinese and Laotian border posts I'm told.

Most immigration officals don't bother to check if you've gone thru the last immigration point (certainly by plane). I could though see this occur in honesty as there is the evil brother connection between commie states. that said...I've only noticed once and I have over 80 pages of passports filled -that was when I queued wrong and so the copper had a closer look (here in Thailand, visa run mecca of the world). if caught out - you may be ok with coming up with a big juicy us50 and Bobs your uncle -you're in Lao.

You will need a visa first for Lao though.

Chok Dee Krap

limits601 · Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject:

Does anyone know to what extent the Chinese government have set up an information system for this kind of information?

I havent seen a single thing that would give me a clue to what if any information systems have been set up.

I know they have computers Laughing

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

IF such an info system is set up, or else you want to do a runner, one thing to keep in mind is that all international flights have customs clearance at the airport before you board the plane.

Whether you fly to Lao, London, or Luxemborg, you first have to clear customs at the given international airport on Chinese soil. To my knowledge there aren't that many: Beijing, Pudong (Shanghai), Hangzhou, Guangzhou, maybe one or two more.

A better option would be to cross at the busy land borders, like the ones connecting HK with Shenzhen. Apparently there are ferry crossings to HK and Macau as well.

Steve

lagerlout2006 · Joined: 17 Sep 2003 Posts: 985

A friend of mine actually collected the breach of contract clause from a school in Guangzhou. Contracts are worth something IF they are legal and it's up to you to find out.

As for the hysteria about leaving the country I don't buy it. I could be wrong but I think it's more China -is -the-devil propaganda. How can they possibly check a contract at the border? Please. You tell them the truth (heard of it?) you are unhappy and going home. There will not be a problem.

ouyang · Joined: 17 Aug 2004 Posts: 193 Location: on them internets

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

"As for the hysteria about leaving the country I don't buy it. I could be wrong but I think it's more China -is -the-devil propaganda."

That's exactly my point. Many, of if not nearly all, of the people we are dealing with are EVIL.

People who lie, cheat, talk nice while planning to or in the process of cheating you are not good people. People who spy on you, try to control your behaviour and income just because they can, are Evil.

The same could be said for the FTs. Many if not most of us are evil as well.

Take a look at the thread about gay FTs if you doubt me.

30 years ago, these people were pushing people out of windows, beating people to death, humiliating one another over ideology that they now repudiate. And this has all been done in the context of the most foolish philosophy of all--Atheism. Without a moral compass, it's no wonder that lying is easier for an FAO than telling the truth.

journeyeast · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:12 pm Post subject:

Yeah, the government tracks this type of information, but its a national database that a local school isnt going to have the insight, knowledge or relationships to get access to it. Like anything else in China, there's steps and a whole other leval to accessing that beaurocracy. (I'm not going to post details how, for what should be obvious reasons.)

It shouldn't be a dissuadent (is that a word) for teachers to go to China unless you are scheming to exploit a school.

We've had a company (talanty) threaten to do this to one of our teachers after the talenty school had totally breached every possible contractual point and the teacher was fed up. We removed the teacher despite the schools threats, without incedent. We walked into the school, packed the teachers bags, (in front of the headmaster) then walked out, flew to Hong Kong, and the teacher found gainful employement three days later.

Now what if the amount is substancial? If you read the back of your visa application or residence permit it should say something about being held as possibility in the event of a legal dispute or in the case where a certain amount of money is disputed to be owed. If there is a court action filed, it is technically not legal for you to leave without completing the course of legal action and you can be detained for that, mostly if the charge is criminal, I dont think it can be done for a civil infraction - you'll have to check. Anyway, if you were in the USA, and you busted up your employers apartment, beat up your girl-friend, she could file charges and lawsuit and they would likely flag your passport. I dont think the employer has much recourse.