Job Discussion Forums

[joe greene]

[Roger]

[quote="lumberjackej"]Ten minutes later, my next class has been able to understand the nuances of race relations, of analogies between Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and the effectiveness of nonviolent protest. Keep in mind that these two classes are next door to each other; the same grade level.

Rather than deep-level analysis, my goal is to find texts that will help students understand normal, contemporary English-language publications.

I

Sorry, but I had to vent my spleen.
You asked for suggestions, and I made some in my previous posts; also I said what's not possible, and I stand by what I said. I can even go further and claim you probably misunderstand your students whom you consider capable of understanding the race issue in the U.S.A.; I doubt that they know of the significance of Martin Luther King's writings because they won't acknowledge that these writings have any importance for Chinese. Understanding means they can adapt it to the circumstances in their own country. This they definitely can't.
But I am no longer in that assertive/cantankerous mood. I encourage you to research what's good for your classes. I have done a lot with my students, and I know many things do work though what really works depends a lot of whether you get the moral support you deserve. What I mean is that your students could be pretty obstructionist, and then you will have a problem on your hands: the administration seldom concurs with a foreign teacher, least of all when his subject is foreign literature. You can arrive at this conclusion by taking a peek at their textbooks; how many contemporary works are in mainland print? How many are NOT in print? You know why they are banned, of course... Which leaves us with those dowdy, though historically interesting, but intellectually challenging works by Dickens and Shakespeare.
Here is a more encouraging suggestion from me: focus on one or two writers per semester, and study them thoroughly. OK, make it two authors, but whole novels by each of them. Select 3 or 4 works from author No. 1, and the same number of works from author No. 2; divide your class (hgopefully no more than 40 students...!) into the same number of groups and assign one novel from each author to one group. Have them study the works in groups. Each group reads one novel in the first half of the semester, and ta second book in the second half of the semester; they make presentations to the whole class about their particular novel. Since the whole class is studying the same author you can make them learn how to appreciate a specific style, literary period, author and his or her defining characteristics. The students being formed into groups can help each other by taking turns making the presentations. You guide them during the lesson.
I suggest once again an author such as Steinbeck, and here are my reasons:
His English is easy to understand; his writing is politicially unsuspect; his novels are set in near-contemporary America, and, perhaps, you can even get copies made in China.

I doubt you can do much better than rousing their interest in English/American literature; and once they are keen on reading they will go on on their own - your target is met. While they are at it they are improving their English and develop a feel for the language. You can grade their performance when they give their presentations, judging their pronunciation, and their gift in reading passages aloud.

I don't think my suggestion is not feasible; in fact I believe it is almost ideal in the context of Chinese English teaching.

I once taught a related subject using a VCD that some abhor - "Family Album U.S.A.". I found it to be extremely effective in conveying the notion that not all they have larnt about the American way of life from their Marxist political textbooks is correct; Americans do care for their family, for their home country and for others. The students were enraptured throughout the semester. Pity a minority among them was unable to divorce their stupid preconceived biases against Western values in their discussions of topics raised in the VCD and their accompanying textbook (monolingual, with pictures and grammar points).

[kev7161]

Aesop's Fables might make a good choice. Short, fairly easy to understand - a moral to every story. I bet they even have similar tales in China to compare/contrast with. There are plenty of fables that you could certainly pair students up and assign individual ones to the pairs and then lead a class discussion on them.

If you want to tackle novels, I would suggest ones that have fairly easy English and themes and maybe even ones that have been adapted into movies. The Outsiders, for example. You could read the novel, discuss it, then they could take a break for a couple of days and visualize it by watching the movie.

Just my two cents . . .

[geek squad]

i used the term "cultural superiority" not because you were simply making a statement about members of a culture from the vantage point of a different culture, but because i feel that in this thread and in a lot of threads on these boards, posters tend to assume that anything negative about chinese people (whether as students, as servers in a restaurant, or whatever) has something to do with the inherent shittiness of chinese people, not because, well, people are shitty all over the world.

yes, i'm sure the chinese government's approach to education blows. but, um, the american government's approach isn't a hell of a lot better. after 16 years in the american school system, i would probably also be inclined to say that the whole thing was pretty pointless. the american school system didn't teach me to think outside the box and analyze things any more than the chinese schools you describe teach chinese students to do those things.

so why, then, is the problem the inherent suckiness of chinese students, when, ummmm, american students pretty much suck too?

and maybe this was different before you left the states, or when you were in college, but university degrees are becoming more and more cumpulsory in the US, and i would assume the rest of the world as well. the (american) university i attend right now is a degree factory. i'm sure there must be degree factories in china as well. also, even within certain majors and departments, there are annoying classes nobody wants to take. maybe american lit is one of them? i guess it's irritating to those who love literature and feel slighted, but there you go. everyone in my department hates the requirement in my subfield, but i don't get all bent out of shape and insist that all anthropology majors are morons because they don't value linguistics enough.

but anyway, i didn't mean to start an argument; it just ticks me off to no end to see the assumptions people make about "the chinese" based on certain individuals' behavior, etc.

[Tao Burp]

Geek Squad,
Yeah it ticks me off that someone with absolutely no China experience and no teaching experience comes on this forum and starts a little diatribe about assumptions, and you're welcome to do so, but don't expect those of us who have been teaching in China, to accept that crap.
I taught at an American University for 3 years. I had excellent students, good students, poor students. I don't deny that the US university system has problems, but overall, it is obviously superior to China's university system--even Chinese students know that. I am also willing to contend that students in US universities have their faults and shortcomings, but all in all, they rank way above my Chinese students.
Come here first and teach in country before you start saying idealistic nonsense, rather than smack some veterans here who can relate experience and knowledge, or maybe that does prove the shortcomings of graduates from US universities, the willingless to ignore those who have experience and knowledge in favor of romantic idealism.

[Norman Bethune]

Teaching English literature to most Chinese students is a waste of time, especially to undergraduates.

English is seen here as a neccessary evil by most students. They need to know the basics to pass the examinations so they can then get a better job than someone who doesn't know any english.

Most schools orient their undergrad english classes for non-english majors to providing the basics. That may mean the students are able to pass the Band 4 exam and have read a brief survey text of English and American Classics with a handy Chinese translation on the opposite page for quick reference.

Three of my Chinese colleaques are studying for their Masters degrees in English Literature. They do not have to read the English books on their reading list in their entirety. A survey text with excerpts from a selection of novelists and poets is all the reading they have to do for the literature class. More stock is put in what the Lecturer says in class than what may actually be in any book the students have to read.

Those of us in China all know the realities.

Most of our students here are like the Kids we used to be or knew in high school or college.

You know the type. Near the end of every class period, hands in the classroom across North America shoot up. Kids who have never asked a question that day suddenly want to know: "Will what you talked about be on the exam" or "Is this going to be on a test".

In China, everything is geared to passing a test in the minds of our students.

Understanding English Literature is not what they, nor their Chinese teachers really care about. It's all about passing the tests. Regurgitating what the recieved opinions and notions of the instructors are what matters. It is the key to success...not having to interpret or understand for ones self .


Having said all that, for Literature Choices to teach I would suggest:

The Pearl by Steinbeck
Ragged Dick by Horatio Alger, Jr
Waiting for Godot by Beckett

and

Green Eggs and Ham by Doctor Seuss

[Atlas]

http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/chinese.mp3

[Roger]

geek squad,
I would urge you to pose your queries in a separate (as in "separation") thread!
This thread was begun by someone who wanted to have help from people with experience; I am more than happy to inform you that I do have just that.
As for American students, I have not the slightest clue as to what you were on; I don't, and never did, teach American students. I have noticed over the years that a lot of American TEFLers are somewhat traumatised by their immersion in the academic study of English literature; I tell you, studying literature doesn't have to be that negative.

[Madmaxola]

Recognizing and repeating a problem, but refusing to explain how and or if it can be fixed, is not productive.

Introducing critical thinking to Chinese students is very hard, but it can be done. It just takes a lot of time and effort and insistence.

Instead of repeating the problems and complaining, how about telling us about any time you've actually had successes in changing students opinions and mindsets?

For example:
With one student, a boy, who as a typical chinese uni student, simply loved video games and sleep, I worked constantly to try to get him to write something original, ANYTHING original, and I tried and tried and tried. I failed his papers repeatedly, and kept pushing it through. Finally I got one paper from him the whole semester that was new, filled with errors, but original and really well written, although it was only 2 paragraphs long. I viewed this as a success and passed him with a D.
You have to realize, that for example with this kid, these people are often peasants and the process of introducing this kind of thought takes a lot of effort.

With another student I got a great story that she wrote, which was actually just a single page metaphor about a river, which symbolized her life. It might have been cliched but the idea was there.

They live in a very intellectually vicious society, and most simply don'T have the kind of thinking skills that you "expect" - but it can be changed- Know what to expect, and know it will be hard.

[jg]

First, my suggestions:

Farenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury
The Lottery - Shirley Jackson
Gold Coast - James Alan McPherson
Everything That Rises Must Converge - Flannery O'Connor
as far as news articles, its free (or really cheap) to get access to the archives of good US newpapers online, and you can pick and choose articles in this way.
Atlas before mentioned he taught his students using Carl Sandburg, I think thats a great poet to work with.

I agree with geeksquad in his/her assessment of some of the attitudes in this thread. Frustration breeds it, but it is what it is. It has nothing to do with being a "vet" in China. I have taught in both China and the US, as many others here have... dont' be lame and wave your credentials around. I agree that if you give up on the students before you have even started, a good deal of the problem is your cynicism - coupled with/compunded by their apathy. However, as the teacher is supposed to be leading the class, you bear some responsiblity. I would hope you wouldn't give up on all the students because some are indifferent.


I for one welcome fresh voices - it was such that encouraged me to go to China and overlook the whiners who have been here for so long and, apparently, gathered so much wisdom and disdain. I am glad the OP is so enthusiastic, I hope your class is a smashing success.

[Atlas]

It's about making generalizations in order to illustrate a point, and having counterarguments brought to bear based on the fact that one is making generalizations. Both sides have points to make.

I have a lot more to say about it but no time.

[Roger]

Well, Atlas, a "lot of generalizations..." - that's your opinion, so why do you conclude "I have a lot more to say but no time"?

You need to understand what the TEACHING OF ENGLISH LITERATURE is all about; it isn't what the Chinese think it is.
You are faced here with a task few Chinese can do even in their own language. There simply is no such tradition in contemporary China as reading prose and understanding from historic and social contexts. They have for years been drilled at reading aloud (with very negative side effects); they have had their own natural curiosity killed of by insensitive teaching methods, and they have acquired zero analytical skills.

Thus, teaching literature is a major challenge, and you would be well advised to think about your job before you start doing it. I have already mentioned a couple of possibilities; I don't think you can do with Chinese students what you can do with American ones (notwithstanding their own problematic outlooks and resistance).
As I said, your priority must be on fostering INTEREST and curiosity, not on "teaching" them "facts". You can go on and on about the Romantic Period and Surrealism and whatnot; to them these are abstract and alien terms with no connection to their own national literature.
You will also have to put in a lot more time per author or book than with native speakers. Thus, i doubt you can actuallycover historic periods or historic authors. My advice is to make them read (perhaps in a simplified version) a whole novel, and ask them to give their feedback on every paragraph or chapter; teach them how to make annotations and how to find tricky problems. For example, John Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" - why this title? I would explain at the end of the novel that the title was inspired by a biblical story.
The simplest will be difficult enough! Have them retell the story in their own words!
When I did "Family album U.S.A." they were very excited about it, what with my class being a 25-girls and 6 boys one; romance was the ice-breaker. Yet, romance was the vry thing that was frowned upon by the school authorities. The story was an eye opener to some; Americans/westerners have a far more satisfying love life than Chinese do. Isn't that a lesson to be glad for students to draw from such a text? I would think so!

[Atlas]

Thanks for your advice Roger, but I wasn't the one asking for it.

I had no time because I had no time. No hidden meaning.

[jomo]

Please, can anyone offer a comment on these kinds of books: Illustrated Pocket Classics, in English. Some titles are, Last of Mohicans, Frankenstein, Ivanhoe, Tale of 2 Cities, Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, Pride & Pred., Call of the Wild, Moby Dick, 2 Years before the Mast, etc. I have 32 of these 7x5 inch highly abridged, B&W illustrated, stories of literature. All printed 20 yrs ago. Would these be suitable for college students at public u. to read and discuss. Would these booklets be more suitable for young teen agers? I am leaving soon for china and will bring them, am hoping they will be good. Have you any ideas on their best use? Does anyone think such 'comic' books would be overly simplistic and thus not welcome for college students? Do chinese college kids do book reports? Reading aloud?

[Norman Bethune]