Job Discussion Forums

Klava · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 12 Location: China, Wenzhou

Hello everybody! I'm happy to be here, 'cause the web site in general and the forum in particular - is awesome and really helpful! And I hope that with so many pros somebody will be able to help me.

I'm teaching in a small town near Wenzhou and the school is going through the process of obtaining the permission to hire foreign teachers right now. I couldn't get visa Z so I got visa F instead (which was fine with me, 'cause I wasn't sure if I'm going to stay at this school or freelance around). The problem is that I'm not sure if I'm supposed to get a Residency Permit or a Temporary Residency Permit with visa F. I thought that when you stay in one place in China long enough you have to have the Permit. When I first went to the local police they just gave me some piece of paper (registration I suppose) saying that I can get my R.Permit later. When I came back later, however, the police officer wasn't happy that the school didn't give him any present ( Exclamation

) and after consulting to somebody on the phone said that he can't give it to me but I can get it in a bigger city of our county. Anyway, I'm planning on leaving for the Spring vacation to Thailand ( Very Happy

) and a little bit nervous about going through Chinese customs. Will they ask me for the Residency Permit? And if not, what other papers I should have when leaving the country on visa F and come backing soon.
I really really want to go Thailand and don't want to get stuck because of some bureaucratic stuff (which I realize is very important in China)! Please, help![/b]

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

Technically you shouldn't be working on an F visa, but that is a risk that you choose to take. As for leaving the country, the officer won't need to see your res permit because that only applies if you have a Z-visa that was issued and later expired.

You will need a multiple entry visa if you wish to return, or else a re-entry visa. If not, you would have to apply for a new visa in Thailand.

It's unlikely that you'll get a residence permit because those only come once you have a Z visa first.

Steve

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Yes, we are an awesome lot of old China hands, but you are totally wrong in assuming we help you fulfill your selfish needs all the times.

Are you a teacher or are you a businesperson???

If the former, you must obtain a work visa, and if you are here on business - whatever business - you are a businessperson and not supposed to be teaching. Sort your situation out by yourself!

Next: your school hasn't obtained the right from the relevant departments to hire foreign nationals??? They ened TWO permits, lady: one from the Labour Bureau, and another one from the Education Bureau.
The PSB will need to see both permits!

So, you are now in a small town next to Wenzhou, and you don't even know whether you can go on holiday - after, I suppose, a couple of weeks or months in the country - outside of China...
Why don't you know?
You must know whether your visa is a SINGLE ENTRY one, or not. There are multiple-entry visas, and there even are visas with aspecified number ofentries. Check it in your passport: a multiple-entry visa has a "M" in front, and the CHinese character for "duo".

If you DON'T have this type of a visa, you will need to apply for a re-entry permit from the PSB. In your case, not a wise step to take since your status is nebulous!

You also mentioned your intention - probably not known to your employer! - that you will eventually want to freelance and be on your own. How very loyal of you towards your employer and sponsor!

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

Roger, The original poster is a good example of the kind of "people" that you have described in your other posts. "Flaky" is a word that comes to mind.

On the other hand, it sounds as if she is just a youngster trying to have some fun before she gets serious about life and settles down into a real job with attendant responsibility.

The fact that she may make it difficult for more serious individuals who actually care about the impression that they make has probably not crossed her mind. But can she be blamed?

Like a one night stand, during which both parties throw caution to the wind for the sake of sensual gratification, are these type of arrangements.

If the school is willing to hire someone like her, can they complain about the uncomfortable itch that follows? Same goes for her.

I suddenly feel as if I am watching "Jerry Springer."

No offense, OP

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

I understand being "green" here in China and I'm happy to give advice/suggestions when I can. I too was once new. However, I'm a little flabbergasted at the OP. Why is she only just now asking these questions? If I'm going to move all the way to a foreign country, I sure as heck would have these all-important visa questions answered. Granted, we all make assumptions here and that is often our downfall. We can also be lied to and cheated. First time, shame on them; second time, shame on us!

But Roger was spot on with this one. There is a wealth of visa information here to research - - time to get busy.

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

I'd like to add that the OP should have done her homework on this stuff beforehand, and I don't know whether or not she signed a contract with her employer. I'm assuming she did, and got stuck with her mistakes, that is working on an F visa. It's her risk, and if she gets caught, she bears full responsibility.

But she's an adult too. As I mentioned in another post, once a mistake has already been made, it doesn't solve much to berate the person for making it. I tend to say, "Well, that was a stupid choice alright, but now you have to go along with it and make sure you don't not repeat it in future." If, however, the person has a chance to avoid the mistake, by all means, they should avoid it.

On that note, how many times have we seen this topic come up? A lot, that's for sure. What is it with newbies who don't read this stuff before coming over and then later post messages about visas that have been asked a gazillion times already. That's why we have a SEARCH function, people.

Steve

yaco · Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 473

In defence of the writer !

It is fine to offer advice about the A to Z of working in China but you are the mercy of your employer, when you arrive in China.

HOW OFTEN DOES THE EMPLOYER GIVE A TEACHER AN F VISA INSTEAD OF A Z VISA ?

HOW OFTEN DOES THE EMPLOYER CHANGE CONTRACTS/WORKING CONDITIONS ?

It is very difficult to sort through these issues when you are a new arrival.

What are the problems you must solve

1) LANGUAGE BARRIER
2) LYING PEOPLE
3) BUREAUCRACY
4) POSSIBLY NO SUPPORT NETWORK

PS; I HAVE BEEN IN CHINA FOR 2 YEARS AND FOR THE SECOND CONSECUTIVE YEAR A WINTER CAMP ADVERTISED THROUGH MY EMPLOYER HAS BEEN CANCELLED, LEAVING 12 UNHAPPY TEACHERS.

Norman Bethune · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 731

Klava · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 12 Location: China, Wenzhou

Wow people, that's a little bit harsh! I've asked for advice and got a whole lot of criticism!

Thank you Struelle for the actual answer on my question.

I just wasn't completely sure and wanted to be a 100% positive before leaving the country. Roger

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

Is quite simple to prepare for work in China. Here's how:

Visit the Chinese Embassy in person or online and discover the type of visas that are available. You might even call them on the telephone and request information. Do some homework. People normally do research prior to taking a job in their country of origin, right?

Read Solzhenitsyn's book The First Circle

Depending on how smooth your FAO/Chinese contact is, it make take a while to figure out that the lessons in First Circle apply to YOU.

Talkdoc · Joined: 03 Mar 2004 Posts: 696

And, obviously Tofuman, neither a visit to the Chinese Embassy nor a thorough reading of The First Circle was sufficient in helping you to avoid the type of current abuse you have repeatedly alluded to on these discussion forums.

If your suggestions are valid, then I imagine that means you either didn't read the book properly or you were actively seeking to be exploited. I guess a possible third explanation is:

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

Talkdoc,

Actually, the time spent learning about visas was helpful. I am here on a "Z" visa and have all my documents in order. For this I do thank the FAO, even though his lack of in-depth knowledge (and mine) cost me a few hundred extra yuan.

You are right about the lessons learned from First Circle. It wasn't until I found myself in the middle of it that I realized what was happening, but it was a reference point from which to get my bearings. That, and some posts I read here, made me realize that this is hardball.

Upon further consideration, a person who has experienced methamphetamine induced paranoia might have a leg up as well.

I could have helped you identify sociopaths. It's rather simple. Tatoos on both arms? Sociopath. Perhaps not always, but a good rule of thumb. My case for instance, I have no tatoos, but a warlock's mark under one eye; however, you have to know what you are looking for.

Incidentally, thanks for the tip on the phone cards. I got 3 fifties for 48.

no_exit · Joined: 12 Oct 2004 Posts: 565 Location: Kunming

Whether it is legal or not to work on an F visa is a no-brainer. Of course not. If the cops come to your school and find a bunch of foreigners working there on anything other than Z visas, the school will get slapped with a hefty fine and the foreigners could be deported. If you decide to work on a non-Z visa then you run a risk. Whether you want to take this risk or not is your own decision, but I think it is pretty silly to go down to the PSB and announce to them that you are working for a school on your F visa. The fact that people told you it is possible to freelance on an F visa doesn't mean that it is legal. A lot of things are possible, right? You're lucky they didn't revoke your visa on the spot. Of course you're not entitled to a residence permit, you're not supposed to be a resident. Those visas have multiple entries for a reason -- business people will be in and out of the country a lot ... on business! Teaching English doesn't count as business.

Whether you have a Z visa or not has nothing to do with the kind of teacher you are, or how well you do your job, but without one there is little you can do if the school decides to scam you. A contract with such a school means absolutely nothing. You can't take that contract to the authorities without admitting to being an illegal worker. If you want to make some extra cash while on holiday in China by tutoring English, well, that's one thing, but if you really want to make a living as an English teacher, you gotta be legit or else, sooner or later, you'll get burned.

I made the mistake of leaving one Z visa job for another, presumably Z visa granting job. This school has also told me they are waiting for the approval to hire foreign teachers. Who knows if this is true or not, but if they can't get me the Z visa, and get it soon, I won't be teaching there come spring semester, end of story. Especially as an American, the visa thing is much much more trouble than it's worth. Anyone can make a naive mistake once, but I think teaching illegally is, in general, a bad idea. If you have basic credentials, you can find a legal job and rest easy. Otherwise, you're just asking to be taken advantage of.