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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Just clicked on bunch of wrong buttons!!
Last edited by Deconstructor on Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:52 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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"student comes across the phrase" is the key phrase here.
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I agree with you about bickering and that the key phrase is "comes across". Classes can often be unpredictable, this is why we plan as well as we could. If a vocab item comes up, I must assume T wanted it to come up. It must never be an accident. In my class a vocab item simply wouldn't come up unless it was part of my plan. Then students are taught how to deal with it. I've talked about this before: it is a question of arming students with strategies to deal with language and its unpredictability. (See my list above.) What if you had 12 students and half of them came up with a vocab question, for example? Shouldn't they be able to work through the mystery WITHIN the mystery? Or should you spend the entire class being a breathing dictionary? Should I constantly tell them where the boogeyman is hiding? Isn�t it more gratifying to know that you can deal with a foreign language without depending too much on anyone including L1? Wouldn�t you yourself want to learn Spanish that way?
Shouldn't we give students the ability to be critical about the whole picture before we give them the first piece of the puzzle? How would they deal with that piece except by eventually discarding it because it has become useless?
I can't come to terms with teaching where T does most of the work; nor can I come to terms with using L1 in the classroom because no one has yet pointed out a situation where L2 wouldn't have been more effective. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Shouldn't we give students the ability to be critical about the whole picture before we give them the first piece of the puzzle. How would they deal with that piece except by eventually discarding it because it has become useless? |
Well of course we should, and no one says otherwise. We're only talking about L1 use here. No one says that it should always/never be used, except you. The gist of the issue is that judicious and appropriate use of L1 is a tool not to be discarded.
My ideal lesson accounts for every single breath of English in the classroom. Never does it account it for everything...it simply can't. A good teacher is ready for just about anything in the classroom. Perhaps the term 'intimidate' wasn't planned for in the class. If it comes up, I'd probably not want to ignore it, unless it was WAY off topic. In any case, I have all of a few seconds to deal with the item in the classroom, and no amount of examples given here will ever fully be appropriate without knowing the students and the context in which the item came up. I used my example of 'bridge' and there are many more one could cite.
And we're only talking about vocabulary, the simplest and most 'physical' building blocks of the class. Appropriacy, abstractness, intonation, humour, and so much ephermeral language use in the class callas for a different tool every time you approach it. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy, I couldn't disagree with you more. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Oh well...let's leave it at that.
Side note: have you ever met anyone in person that you'd chatted with here on Dave's? I had the pleasure yesterday, and also with two others about 2 weeks ago. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Regrettably, I've never had the pleasure.
Who did you meet, if you don't mind me asking? |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
Regrettably, I've never had the pleasure.
Who did you meet, if you don't mind me asking? |
I'm not going to say who just in case there is a privacy issue. I met a language school director and a teacher in Jalisco, Mexico, two who post here on occasion, and an American teacher who posts infrequently, in Mexico City yesterday. Good meeting...nice guy to talk to.
It's nice to know that there are a lot of good people here on Dave's. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Back to the topic of L1 in the classroom, one thing I've found useful for when I am teaching a group of disruptive teenage boys.
I try to conduct the class all in English, and they just ignore me and chatter amongst themselves. The class becomes a joke with no hope of any kind of actual learning happening.
But if I introduce some key words and phrases with translations, suddenly the students pay attention and actually try to do the exercise that was planned for them.
I can't say exactly what is going on in their heads, but I imagine it's something like this:
Wow! This stupid, ugly foreigner actually understands some Korean!
Maybe he understands all of our swearing that we've been doing! 
Oh no! He's making us look bad. If a dumb waygug-in (foreigner) can learn Korean, we can learn English.
We can't let him show us up.
Better do some work! 
I'm not saying this is the best teaching approach, but if it gets them to pay attention and put a little effort into the class, it can't be all bad. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Deconstructor"]shmooj wrote:
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| [quote="shmooj"]An example I used this very evening of helpful use of the L1 follows. I was working with a Pre-Int student one on one: student comes across the phrase "feel intimidated by sb". The S does not understand this phrase at first but the teacher illustrates from their own experience to give context while all the time keeping to L2. Finally, to concept check, the T asks the S what they think the L1 equivalent of this word is. They write this down and then check a bilingual dictionary to see if their guess approximates their L1 concept. Having done this, to further refine understanding, the S is asked to used the ENglish phrase as an expample. In this case, the L1 word actually has more to do with sheer terror than intimidation in English can account for. As the S uses the new phrase to describe a terrorist holdup, the T discovers the S has to redefine their understanding of intimidate, gradually helping the S to form more suitable examples of the appropriate use of intimidate. |
It seems that you spent quite a few minutes explaining the word "intimidate". You simply gave one example after another, allowed a bilingual dictionary, etc, then both of you felt that all was well with the universe. You even double checked, or as you called, concept checked, that the student understood the vocab. Now what? Can you guarantee that S is going to be able to use it? I can guarantee that S will never use that word. Why? T forgot some key questions.
Here�s my class: First I would�ve made sure that it was a vocab worth teaching. Not all words should be taught at any level. If it was, it would�ve been taught in context. I would�ve asked series of questions: If it was part of a reading activity, as it ought to be, (video and listening are also good methods) did I assess vocabulary load of my text before class? that is, did I assess how important the unfamiliar words were to understanding of the text?
Did I tell S that guessing meaning and �keeping going� are valid reading strategies? If S is under the impression that all words are of equal importance, then S is reading at the word level.
Did I assess how much unfamiliar vocab S can tolerate? There are great many studies that suggest that less attention should be paid to simplifying or explaining vocab and more to teaching strategies for coping with difficult words. How about building background knowledge in order for S to construct meaning for unfamiliar words?
Is there a meaningful purpose for reading this text?
Does S have or can I provide them with appropriate background knowledge for understanding the content?
Is the level of abstractness appropriate?
What kind of extra textual support is available?
Is the text clearly organized?
Is there sufficient redundancy of ideas?
Will the number of difficult vocab items interfere with the task at hand?
Are syntactic relationships within sentences and between sentences clear?
Have I set an appropriate task for the type of text, the level of difficulty and the needs of S, and have I taught them the necessary skills to cope with the task?
If you always prepared your lessons like this, it would still take you hours if you were lucky.
| Quote: |
| As I quoted Ellis before, this is simply one example of a judicious use of L1 enabling clarification of new L2 language. There are other examples but I've gotta get some kip... |
Judicious use of L1, you say. Yes, you found a perfect short cut, old boy, and created the illusion of teaching while S did the same with learning.
There is certainly something that both T and S did achieve: colossal waste of time and aberration of teaching.
Is this not the very hallmark of TEFL? |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Is it just me Decon or is your clone logging on when you're not around and posting cloned responses?
Take her off autopilot man, we're gonna crash! |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Decon, you entered this thead, guns blazing, advocating that L1 in the classroom will not aid teaching. You claimed that the literature supported it and laughed off claims otherwise. At the first sign of literature backing up support for L1 use in the classroom, you changed your tack, feigning humility and open-mindedness. You have yet to cite one single source for your own point of view which would really help to raise the game here - as you so often claim TEFL needs to do.
Then, instead of dealing with the example I gave, you decide to do your best to invent a context for the class and then appraise it based on your erroneous assumptions about the T's decisions in the example. You know NOTHING more than I told you about the particular example I gave and so, to critique it on assumptions is to err.
Finally, you contradict yourself in suggesting that whilst I am a "good teacher" I am simply churning out CELTA techniques. Incidentally I myself have never even taken the course.
You, sir, failed to ask a sensible question, namely, did the use of L1 with the student in my example enable learning of the item concerned. I believe it did, because the technique I employed, that of noticing, engages the student in hypothesis testing. There is plenty of research to support this in aiding acquisition and that is precisely what Ellis is referring to in my previous post.
Unless you are able to provide hard references to support your position, you are not worth talking to and I will then refrain from doing so.
Over to you. |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow! I guess that takes care of that. Somebody got called out. |
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moonraven
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 3094
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:27 am Post subject: |
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And now we have the cheerleader on the field--tomorrow must be Superbowl Sunday....
Just what kind of references need to be produced to justify one's position on the use--and more commonly, abuse--of the first language in the classroom? Is this the "When all dialog fails, kick up sand by demanding footnotes" phase of the thread?
I would like to point out that this is not an academic convention, but a discussion forum. Nobody needs footnotes to justify a personal decision in regard to teaching. And not only that, but nobody who has taken a position on this issue is going to be convinced by the presentation of same.
My own experience in regard to this issue has shown me that little by little one begins to understand when L1 use can be helpful and when it is only a crutch that will keep the student unable to walk in L2. One of the comments that I have said relatively frequently to students is that the goal of language learning is to produce confident users of that language. The more a student depends on L1, the less confident he or she will continue to be. |
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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| ...yawn.... |
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shmooj
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
Posts: 1758
Location: Seoul, ROK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| moonraven wrote: |
My own experience in regard to this issue has shown me that little by little one begins to understand when L1 use can be helpful and when it is only a crutch that will keep the student unable to walk in L2. One of the comments that I have said relatively frequently to students is that the goal of language learning is to produce confident users of that language. The more a student depends on L1, the less confident he or she will continue to be. |
That kind of balance in discussion forgoes the need to back up what you are saying with other's exprience (which is essentially what references are). As Decon fails to provide any form of balance, despite feigning some earlier in this thread, and also fails to provide us with examples from his own teaching experience which lead him to his conclusion, as you have, reasonable discussion is impossible.
Personally, I appreciate the balance you have shown in your description of your POV. I am also of the same mind although, due to less teaching experience than you, I started with research and validated this in the classroom. I think there is a great deal of worth from being self-reflective in the classroom and fail to see how anyone with a decent amount/quality of class experience would not realise the potential usefulness/pitfalls of L1 use as you do.
My call for references was not an end in itself, I hope you understand  |
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