Job Discussion Forums

[stavrogin2001]

I recently received one of the new sticker residency permits from my school. I went to HK over the holiday, and although the customs official had to get a supervisor to ok me crossing over to Shenzhen, it seemed to all work out in the end. So it seems that the new Residency permits are multi-entry, but my question is this, does this mean that the days of going to HK to get a new visa and reenter and find a new employer are over? I recently signed a new contract, but after signing the contract I have experienced a lot of changes in both management and in local living conditions. I have therefore have thought about making a run for HK and reenter to find a new job. Does anyone know if this is possible anymore?

I know it is not the most mature thing to do, I also understand that I will probably get some flak from other posters for even thinking about doing this, but I would appreciate any information you might have.

Also there is a guy at my school right now that got hired through a recruiter. He worked for one school, but left because he said the conditions were not up to the contracts specs. So he is here now, but never had his residency permit changed to the new school. Have any of you out there worked on a residency permit from another school after leaving and never got it changed? It seems a little sketchy to me, but thought I would ask.

It seems to me the days of the �midnight run� might be over. Any information would be most useful. Thanks in advance.

[Talkdoc]

stavrogin2001 - A great deal has already been written about this; if you do a search on Visas Residency, you should receive a lot of information.

My understanding is that the foreign residency permit supercedes the Z-Visa in relevancy once you have entered (re-entered) the country. As long as you have a valid FRP, the question of your Z-Visa is irrelevant (whether it is single- or multi-entry). Under the same set of circumstances, my current employer didn't care about the status of the Z-Visa; the FAO was only concerned that I would have enough time left on my residency permit so that the school would have sufficient time to renew it before it expired.

The problem you are going to have is in finding a subsequent employer who will either not care or overlook the fact that you are "pulling a runner," i.e., taking a new job without having completed your current contract as, understandably, that raises some question about your reliability. Technically, you need either a letter of release or a chopped letter of recommendation on letterhead from your previous employer in order to secure another position. Without either of those, you have two basic choices: 1) you can be forthright about the fact that you would be leaving early and why you are and hope they agree with your decision or 2) you can leave the country and apply for employment as if you have never taught here before.

After numerous contract violations and subsequent heated and acrimonious refusals to release me early, I also found myself in the same position as you. I decided to be upfront about my situation with prospective employers. Several didn't seem to care, one declined my candidacy because of it and one, my current employer, listened carefully, asked a lot questions, requested an unofficial letter of recommendation from one of the school's department heads (whom I had worked primarily for and, although he was sorry to see me leave, he was very sympathetic, just as frustrated with the school and was more than glad to do it) and then was offered my current position. My feeling is (based on my own personal experience) if you are leaving your current position early, it will take you longer to find a better job but, ultimately, if you have valid reasons, an otherwise good work history, the minimum qualifications, other credentials and if you are needed, it shouldn't be a problem. How my current school actually got around the letter of release/recommendation requirement is unclear to me (I didn't ask) but, hey, this is China.

Good luck,

Doc

[cj750]

What you are talking about is the residence sticker in your passport...and you no loinger have a FRP book.
I understand (from the local PSB and School admisnistrator) is that the sticker is good for re-entries into China and that you no longer need the release letter to go to work for another school. This info is all hear-say from the PSB office and I would not count on the goverment making things easier for foreigners to change jobs.

[Chris_Crossley]

I have as yet not gone to the PSB to retrieve my passport following my new employer's application for a new residence permit last week, yet I had had no idea about this new sticker permit business until I read this thread. It just shows you what information you can get from Dave's that you might not get from your employer!

As mentioned by other posters, regarding the Foreign Expert Certificate, this red-covered passport-like booklet has not changed in format. I do have my new one, since I have now changed my school following the (happily successful) completion of the one-year contract at the primary school I had worked for until recently.

I have been quite fortunate inasmuch as I have never had to break my contracts for any reason in the three years I have taught in Wuhan, although I will say that my former center manager (CM) (at the EF school I worked at for two years) was totally unsympathetic to my wanting to leave China on account of the SARS crisis in April 2003, although that did not stop four other expatriate teachers from handing in their notice, much to his shock and disbelief.

I did, though, stick it out, since I did (and still do) have family here - in which case I would not have had to go to HK to get any new permit in case of expiry. Indeed, I would be counted as being a foreigner married to a Chinese citizen. This would mean that I would simply be able to go to the local aliens entry/exit office of the PSB (just a couple of kilometres from my home!) and get a three-month extension to my current visa for just 160 RMB (is that right?) if I did not have another job to go to in the meanwhile.

That is certainly an interesting snippet of information about the new sticker permit in the passport acting like a multiple-entry visa. If this is true that it can act like one, then it should solve a lot of problems as far as the run to HK is concerned. One of my (now former) colleagues had to go to HK ASAP in order to have his visa changed after he was informed by the PSB in no uncertain terms that his status as a full-time teacher was illegal without the proper documentation. The school got rapped over the proverbial knuckles for allowing this to happen, but otherwise got let off without being fined.

[struelle]

The more we see people post about their experiences with the new residency sticker, the more accurate information we can get. Until then, a lot of this is conjecture. Still, the multiple entry feature, if it works, is an outstanding improvement from the old RPs. I recall many times I wanted to vacation outside of China but had to cut that due to complications with getting a re-entry visa.

If this feature works as I think it does, it is ingeniously designed because it makes it easier to go in and out of China while cutting back on midnight runs at the same time!!

Here's how: Suppose you had a multiple entry Z visa and the old green book. You didn't like your boss, so you pulled a midnight run after the Z visa expired, re-entered China with the MEV, then ditched the green book. You applied for a new Z visa with a new employer, perhaps in a new province too. Then, a fresh Z visa and new RP was issued.

Now, this tactic fails because the RP sticker stays in your passport! The new employer says, "Uh, wait a second. You still have this RP that expires <some time later>. Do you have a release letter from your old employer? You don't? Sorry."

Granted, a runner could easily leave China altogether and work in another country, say Thailand, but those types of runners are a minority, they account for maybe 10% of the problem. Most want to come back to China, and it's this for this 90% of runners that the new RP stickers will make it far more difficult to pull it off.

Steve

[Talkdoc]

[Roger]

What remains to be seen and experienced is this: if you sojourn n China for sevral years, with a new employer every year, how many release letters will you have to present in order to be accepted as a work visa candidate your next time? Just the last release letter? Maybe, or maybe you need release letters for every change of employer...
Also, I am a little wary of novelties like this; do we all automatically qualify for a multiple-entry visa from now on? My current employer would be unhappy because they wouldn't know how to save the money they have so far saved at our expense for not footing the bill for multiple-entry visas.
THen the next stage: if we have to pay for visas,then why not pay the school a "commission" for finding us employment in China?

[struelle]

[stavrogin2001]

Thanks for all your input.

The way I see it is that this is a way that they can limit our ability to get out of a bad situation by getting a new visa. If you went to HK before it was easy, you ditch the green book at the border, they cancel your z-visa and you start over, but now it is much different. Now I am going to have a passport full of these ugly, huge Chinese residency permits. The longer I stay the more I will have. Also it means we are much more answerable for our past jobs it seems. As a US citizen I had a non-expiring z-visa. Of course it was single-entry, but that was never touched in the past. Now it has been cancelled by the local PSB and next to it is the new sticker.
If my boss was giving me the run around or not deliver on agreed terms I see that it would be even worse for us now unless we have enough money to go home first.

What do you think would happen if one were to go to HK with this set up and get a business visa and then come back in? Do you think it would fly? I used to think that there was no way that the Chinese could have a nationwide network to record the foreigners residing in the country, but now I wonder. Could they stop you at the border under the new guidelines? My residency sticker was scanned at the Shenzhen border.

The Chinese are getting high-tech.

[KES]

According to information from our Chinese manager, who went to the PSB twice for this clarification, a release letter is no longer required.

If you are unhappy with your school, a midnight run is not necessary. Find a new job and leave. When you leave, your school will report to the PSB your are gone.

Three to five days AFTER the PSB is notified of your departure, they will place an entry in their database showing your residence sticker is invalid. This is your grace period.

During this time your new school needs to begin processing your new residence permit. If the new residence permit application is not initiated during this grace period, you will be liable for 500 RMB in fines per day (5,000 RMB max I understand).

How gracefully you exit your school is up to you. The point is, if you find a new job before you depart the school, you should, in theory at least, be able to transition into a new job without difficulty.

Naturally, it will be up to you to convince the new school that your reasons for leaving your current situation are compelling - if they happen to care about such things.

According to the PSB, these changes were to make it easier for foreign workers to switch jobs.

Anyway, this is all secondhand information from just one PSB in China. Your milage may vary.

Best of luck to all and Happy Holidays.

BTW: I too have one of the new stickers and will be going and returning to Thailand on this as a rentry visa this month (without problem I hope.).

[struelle]

[cj750]

KES and I have the same info from two diffrent cities and two diffrent PSBs. The release letter may not be needed anymore. This may not be enforced the same in all prov. I will be going to a new position later this month and even though I got a release letter (on the odd chance that Iwouold need it) I will try and submit the change without it..

[ymmv]

This is a good and useful thread.

As Steve said,

[yaco]

The need to get a release letter from your last employer is dependant on how much ' Guanxi ' your employer has.

My employer issues all teachers with a multiple entry Z visa but I am convinced this occurs because they are issued whilst teachers are in China.

[ymmv]

My contribution to this thread:

1. FACT: The new Z-visas are pasted in the passport and the residency permit has been abolished. Source: many of the above posters as well as myself.

2. PROBABLY FACT: The new pasted Z-visa acts as a multi-entry visa. Source: many of the above posters and I was told the same by my FAO. We are all anxiusly awaiting confirmation from those of us who will be travelling out of the country during Spring Festival and returning on that visa. Please post your experiences here.

3. PROBABLY FACT: China is cracking down on L visas and F visas being converted to Z visas in country. Source: One FAO and two laowai. One FT who called me early this week in desperation - (an American) in north China at the moment - had previously worked 3 years on a Z visa. He left for 6 months to Australia and came back to China on an L-visa. Went back to his old school, which wanted to hire him, but when they took him to the local PSB to convert the L to a Z, was told he must return to his home country with new paperwork and get the Z-visa there before returning. The other is a guy who was hired by my current university as a part-timer. He was here on an F-visa working for a language mill but the uni needed someone to fill in a couple of hours a week. They liked his teaching and offered him a contract for next semester. But they were told that he would have to return to OZ to get the Z-visa because he wasn't already here on a Z-visa. So the school has prepared the necessary paperwork and he will be leaving in a few days to go home, get a Z-visa in Oz and be back in time for spring semester. From talking about the situation with my FAO (since this whole issue has suddenly arisen in the last couple of weeks) I learned that there are new regulations beyond the simple Z-visa pasted in the passport. She attended a "training session" a couple of weeks ago given for all the local FAOs. Apparently it's like a kind of "continuity of Z-visa" thing. You can move freely from schol-to-school if you do so without breaking the "Z chain" as it were. (Here, KES and cj750's advice fills in the gaps on my confusion at her words.) But if you go back to an L or F, you have to go home and start over again. The FAO also told me that the reason for this is that the old letter of invitation has been retained but, in addition, a new "certificate of employee" issued by the Foreign Affairs Office of either the city or province (she wasn't clear on which) must be issued along with the letter of invitation and both must be presented to the embassy back home before they will issue a new Z-visa. The "certificate of employee" (as she called it) is NOT the same as the current labor permit or "permission to hire foreigners" certificate. She didn't explain anything beyond that (nor did I ask - she had already been more forthcoming than I would have expected).

4. ONLY MY SPECULATION (Value=0 RMB): I can only speculate in a few different directions here: maybe she meant "certifiacte of employability" whereby the local/provincial FAO office will check credentials (B.A./2 years experience teaching/no past problems), or they are bi-furcating the process of Z-visa procurral so that two agencies are involved (PSB and FAO) to cut down on illegal visa conversion (actually 3 if you add in the requirement of your Chinese embassy back home). Perhaps a measure, too, of whether a private language mill has the necessary authority from the FAO to obtain this new "certificate". Again, this is just my uneducated speculation.

5. VARIOUS FURTHER RELATED RUMOURS: Sources: always reliable, sometimes reliable, or usually reliable sources passing on third-party rumours.

DISCLAIMER: Don't shoot me - I'm not always the messenger, nor do I intend to be a rumour-monger. I'm just posting some other stuff I have experienced or heard (not through BBS's, e-mail or Dave's, but from face-to-face or voice-to-voice). CAUTION: YMMV - your mileage may vary.

a. $600 BAIL: Source: Me, a dean, a runner and the 2002 SAFEA regulations.

Buried in the new SAFEA regulations issued in 2002, was this provision: