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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: just turning up in china |
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| yaco wrote: |
Talkdoc
Sorry to contradict you but a standard Batchelor's degree is 3 years in Australia.
Why are you working on an F Visa ? |
Right now, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Doc |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Kev,
You are correct. I applied to teach ESL in China this summer with a recruiter and I am in the process of trying to decide what to believe. I received the email addresses of three former teachers and asked what they thought of the recruiter. Guess what I found out? They were all friends of the recruiter!! So like you said it is hard to know what to believe. I am just coming over because I want to experience China and get some teaching experience because I want to work in Taiwan after I graduate in December. So I am just hoping for the best.
Kev, is it a problem to enter China with a tourist visa, even though the return date on your plan ticket is 90 days away? I am trying to make sure I do not get in a jam. If anyone could give me some helpful information on this I would greatly appreciate it. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| I applied to teach ESL in China this summer with a recruiter and I am in the process of trying to decide what to believe. |
What exactly are you having trouble believing: that entering this country with a Z-Visa is the only legal way to teach or that doing so on a L- or F-Visa is a good idea?
Guys - if you ask for references of current and former teachers and, instead, you are given contact information of personal friends of the recruiter (or FAO or DOS), or you speak with a current employee of the school who can't stop raving about just how wonderful the place is (one who won't provide you with even one reasonable criticism about anything), what does that tell you?
The single greatest problem with anecdotal evidence from all the members on this forum who have come here to teach with L- and F-Visas is that not one of them can guarantee that you will meet with the same success (certainly not at different schools and provinces and, perhaps, not even at the same school). Conversely, I can personally guarantee that if you come to teach in China with a Z-Visa that 1) You definitely won't have any Visa problems over the next 12 months and 2) You will definitely have a job waiting for you and you will receive a signed contract from the sponsoring employer, once you arrive (by law).
This discussion is really not a matter of who or what to believe (the laws regarding Visa requirements in China are clear enough); it's entirely a matter of what your personal tolerance is for risk-taking (i.e., how safe you want to play it).
With one or two rare exceptions, no one here is disputing what the law requires from us as foreign teachers (the information is public, after all, and can be read by anyone). The only two issues in dispute are to what degree specific provincial tolerance for illegal alien status constitutes a minimization of that risk (in working as one) and, second, the ease (or difficulty) one faces in converting a L- or F- to a Z-Visa after one begins working. Some people have written that they have faced absolutely no problems in working here illegally or in conversion (after the fact); others have reported considerable difficulties (and heartbreak) involving coming to China to teach on a L- or F-Visa (only to be turned away or duped by a prospective employer, or recruiter, who had initially promised them, then reneged on, a job) and, in the case of conversion, additional time and expense (not to mention considerable uncertainty).
In my opinion, you can believe them all.
Doc
PS. Keep in mind too that recruitment agencies are not authorized to sponsor Z-Visas; only the licensed schools they, hopefully, represent can do so. If the recruiter connects you to an unlicensed school, one not authorized to hire foreign teachers, then the debate regarding conversion is entirely pointless - you will have no choice but to work in China illegally (or, in the alternative, to leave the agency and find a school on your own that is authorized to sponsor you). |
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beck's
Joined: 06 Apr 2003
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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You should listen to Talk-Doc. I would never have come to China on anything other than a Z visa. To do so is risky in that it puts you at the mercy of the FAO or recruiter.
To get a Z visa, the school needs to mail you (not fax or email attachment) a chopped and signed letter of inivitation. Once you have this document you are almost absolutely sure that the school has a job waiting for you and that they will be responsible for you once you arrive in China. Any school that is not willing to send you the required documents to obtain a Z visa is not to be trusted. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would want to come to China with anything less than the legally required documents. What is the advantage of operating on the shady side of the law, especially in a dictatorship? You will take enough risks just living in China. Why add more risky behaviors to the list? |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Be advised that many schools and provinces will NOT (and many cannot because of provincial enforcement of the regulations) convert that L-Visa to a Z-Visa for you. This will typically require that you travel to a neighboring Asian country (such as Thailand) with the proper paperwork to order to apply for and return to China with the Z-Visa. There is nothing wrong or illegal with obtaining employment in China that way if you have the financial means and time with which to do it. |
Would one also be able to travel to Hong Kong with the proper paperwork in order to apply for and return to China with the Z-Visa? It just so happens that I have the time and financial means to do just that. I will arrive in China in May on a L-visa. I will be traveling and playing but also be interviewing with schools during that time, not working! Before the Fall semester starts, I will be going to Hong Kong for travel as a tourist. I was wondering if I could apply for the Z-visa while I am in Hong Kong, then re-enter mainland China with the Z-visa and begin work at the sponsoring school.
In this situation, would I get the singed letter of invitation from the school directly? Then take this letter with me when I visit Hong Kong in order to apply the Z-visa? What other documents would I need to take with me to Hong Kong? How long does the application process of the Z-visa take in Hong Kong?
Thanks for you input Talkdoc.
AB |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| amandabarrick wrote: |
| Would one also be able to travel to Hong Kong with the proper paperwork in order to apply for and return to China with the Z-Visa? |
AB - as with every other single issue raised on this forum, the responses to this particular question have been highly varied and contradictory. I personally don't know what the correct answer is. It is true that Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region (SAR) but it is still a part of China.
Rather than rely on the personal and prior experiences of others, if I were you, I would contact the Chinese consulate closest to you and ask them directly. You won't necessarily learn what is possible in practice but you should be able to ascertain, at the very least, what the Chinese embassy considers to be legal. If you are told that converting an L- to a Z-Visa is not possible (legal) then, it may be still be possible through "other means" but I personally wouldn't count on them.
Doc |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:49 am Post subject: |
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As far as I'm aware it is (as I've done it) perfectly OK to enter Hong Kong, which requires no Visa for most western countries (merely a stamp on entry). Then proceed to a 'China Travel Service' office with your correct paperwork, (letter of invitation from school or uni, passport photos and paperwork from a local foreign experts' office) with your fee and fill out the application paperwork. By the way, no Degree certificate is required, that is up to the institution themselves, if they want to set that as a requirement for employment (schools usually don't, uni's do). The medical test should be done in within a month, inside China. If you were British, for example it would be easiest to fly into Hong Kong with the documents that the school should post to you in the UK and do everything there. You can have a Z visa within 24 hours in Hong Kong.
If you enter China on a L or F visa you WILL need to go to Hong Kong to obtain a Z.
This is first hand evidence, I've done this myself. This was in 2003, if the rules have changed since, I stand corrected.
Last edited by Taishan on Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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burnsie
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 489
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah ..... yawn.... Blah..... |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Taishan,
thanks for the info. Where would I find the paperwork from a local foreign experts' office? Is this something I would find in Hong Kong? I hope I don't sound like an idiot.
Does a Z visa take 24 hours in Hong Kong for only British citizens or for any westerner?
AB |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Amandabarrick,
I don't think it is highly probably for your school to give you the paperwork so you can go to Hong Kong to apply for a work visa.
They would assume that hiring you on the spot is safer than sending you to HK with an invitation to return to the mainland.
You could disappear in the vast hinterland north of Hong Kong, so all the paperwork would have been wasted./
They would most likely want to apply to the local PSB. You could then first undergo a medical check in the local clinic.
I am not sure the China Visa Section of the Central Government in Hong Kong is in a position to grant work visas since no Hongkonger needs a work visa for the mainland. In my experience, the visa section is rather stand-offish though efficient and relatively affordable. BUt this applies to business visa applicants and tourists, not to job hunters.
Perhaps if you venture farther afield - Manila, Seoul or Hanoi - they might be more inclined to entertain your fancies. |
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GregSka
Joined: 11 Apr 2004
Posts: 30
Location: Zhuhai, China
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| Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Talkdoc wrote: |
If you are a prospective teacher back home, contemplating teaching in China, here's what you need in order to obtain a Z-Visa:
1) A four-year college degree (any major)*
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Talkdoc, I thought you were joking as I first read that. If a Chinese school can't forge you a good degree and bribe the necessary officials for it to hold up, it's probably not a stable company to begin with. And starting work on a tourist visa isn't a rarity, it's the norm (and the autorities are well aware of it). It may not sit right with some people that the rules in China aren't as solid as the rules in other countries, but that's just the way it usually works. |
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amandabarrick
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 391
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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GregSka,
I think if you read the footnote it explains this perfectly. many government universities will actually confirm your degrees after you have started working. I believe these Universities would all fit your definition of "stable."
Talkdoc also addressed exactly what you are suggesting:
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| Finally, many private English language schools will actually forge a college degree for you, if you do not have one, in order to register you as a foreign expert for your Z-Visa. But I cannot think of a clearer and louder statement of contempt in regard to how the school views (and treats) its foreign teachers (not to mention how it views itself in regard to the law, vis a vis its systematic commission of fraud and, by extension, its obligation to you and your contract). |
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Voldermort
Joined: 14 Apr 2004
Posts: 597
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
| I am not sure the China Visa Section of the Central Government in Hong Kong is in a position to grant work visas since no Hongkonger needs a work visa for the mainland. |
They can process any visa for you. For the Z-visa they require you to produce the invitation letter, and will ask you to have a medical within 30 days of entering China. At least that was the case last August. |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Amanda Barrick, one of my friends has just returned from Hong Kong with a work visa. He previously had a L visa I believe. I don't see why a school couldn't provide you with a letter of invitation, if it's a legitimate institution. Or any reason why you can't get a Z visa in HK. Yes HK residents don't want to work in China usually. This service is for the thousands of foreigners that want to visit China from Hong Kong. A 'Z visa' is part of that 'visa service' and can be obtained within 48 hours. Fact.
The 'China Travel Service' of which there are several offices in HK are the best places to get the visas. As the name suggests the are state owned travel agents. Nathan Road, Kowloon was were I went.
Sorry to Roger, but I don't think he knows a great deal about HK.
I also have never been asked to produce my degree certificate to obtain a Z visa when working for a school. Would a school really forge one in the belief that I don't possess one? At what stage is one asked for by the authorites? Yes a uni will require one.
I think talkdoc is a little off the mark here too!
Last edited by Taishan on Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Taishan
Joined: 30 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Amanda, the 'letter of invitation' is sent to your school or uni from the 'Foreign Affairs Office' it is usually located in the biggest city of the province you are in. The school will then pass this paperwork on to you if you need to get the visa personally. There is some other paperwork that accompanies the 'LOI' that is what I was refering to. The LOI is all you really need, with the fee, passport photos, and a filled in application form available at the office or place from which you are applying.
Most western countries take about the same time, as far as I'm aware. It's more expensive for a short proccessing time, and cheaper for longer (from within 24 hours to over a week) 48 hours seeming the most cost effective, depending on the cost of your hotel or guesthouse. Last time it was more expensive for an American to obtain the visa compared to other nationalities. If the time taken for US citizens is slower, I'm uncertain, but doubt it.
Last edited by Taishan on Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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