Job Discussion Forums

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

OK,
I'm just really getting sick of dealing with this business. But I need some outside opinions on how to proceed. I shall decide on my own of course, but what does everyone think?
I don't have a bachelor's degree. I never have. I started teaching with some college (mostly music) but I never earned a degree. I don't know how difficult it would be to find all the credits I may or may not have, strewn all over the fifty states, Australia and New Zealand, and if they are transferable or whatever. It's just a mess.
Now, I have been teaching for eight years, all in various countries, and the last two of them have been as the Director of Studies at an (I admit) McEnglish School.
(That said, anyone who has worked in ANY sort of McManagement knows that as laughable as it is, it's a lot of work.)

OK. In the mean time, I was accepted on the Trinity College, London LTCL Diploma TESOL course even though it's supposed to be a post-graduate qualification, based on the "first degree or equivilant" rule.
I earned the diploma with no trouble. Well, it wasn't easy, but there was never a serious question that I would fail.

The above is back story. The point of which is that I think that I am perfectly qualified to work as a teacher and in my opinion should be able and trusted with licensing as a school teacher, teacher trainer, and so on.
The diploma generally gets the respect it deserves, BUT many government regulations mindlessly require a bachelor's degree. No equivilant, and no age or experience can be shown un lieu of this degree, because it's not decided by people in most cases. If there's nothing to fill in the blank, that ends the process.

Now, I have decided that I need a bachelor's degree. At the age of 40 and as much as I have always railed against them, it's made me a little angry, but I've lost the energy to deal with this.
OK. That decided, what should I do? A fully legitimate degree would take a LOT of time and money. There seem to be a lot of semi-legit, arguable degrees out there, like from Kennedy-Western University, that would be easy to get, and at least "require" a certain number of credits or whatever and SEEM to have the semblance of legitimacy. Then there are the obvious diploma mills.
I am VERY tempted to go with something like Kennedy-Western. The country governments where I work would never know the difference (at the moment I have a work permit and foreign expert book based in part on a BA in anasthesiology from Keg University). But I would one day like to get a job teaching school in the U.S.
What do you good folks think I should do? Or, what would YOU do under the circumstances?
As a side note, I know I'll get plenty of this anyway, but what do you think of my attitude about degrees? I don't feel as though I should be required to have one, so if I thought I could fully get away with FORGING one I wouldn't have a problem with that.
OK. Thanks for any input you may have.
Sincerely,
Gregor

GambateBingBangBOOM · Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan

Get transcripts from every post-secondary institution you've been to, and choose a few schools and apply directly, submitting your courses for transfer credit. Let them deal with it.

(At least where I'm from in Canada) you need to take at least half of the courses for any degree at the university that will be granting it. So that would be at least 10 (or two full years, with summers off) for a four-year degree. Some universities may also offer a three year degree (like if you double major in English and philsophy, then the English major is all the course requirements for a three year degree), so that would only be one and a half years, which (depending on the school) may possibly be completed in twelve months (no summer off).

If you are really "sick of dealing with this business" then your only option is to actually do the work and get a degree. You will be at risk of being discovered if you do anything else.

You will almost definately not be able to get away with any half-degree thing in the US itself.

marblez · Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 248 Location: Canada

I am one of those people who lives on a pitiful amount of money in order to achieve my university degree. I spend nearly all my money on it - and all of my loans. I sacrifice a car, clothing, FOOD, etc... in order for my "scrap of paper". A movie? A McDonald's combo? I knew those things at one time! Please don't devalue all that I am working for.

There is one thing that you would not be teaching your students - honesty and integrity. Kennedy-Western is a diploma mill - and if caught, you would most likely be fired. You would deserve it.

Please add option #4 to your poll: "This is outright fraud and a slap in the face for those who have sacrificed the time and money for a real degree"

Atlas · Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 662 Location: By-the-Sea PRC

sometimes you get a slap in the face. That's life, kid.

You might consider getting a distance degree, many if not most legit universities are offering this option now, with varying degrees of on-campus residence requirements (if any). You can achieve the degree at your own pace, fast or slow, without shipwrecking your schedule. If so, be very careful about accreditation from legitimate bodies--in the US a program should be regionally accredited in order for it to be "legit", whatever that means. Be careful about other schools accredited from unknown agencies, you may get a degree that isn't marketable in the education field, and if so why bother? And believe me, I know how you feel. I returned to uni at 30 and because I worked too, it took me 6 years to complete, and my lifestyle really sucked during that time--whereas my brother in law got a 2 year BA program in network admin and got a job at an ivy league school (yes, that one) running their computer system fresh out of the program, while I was still finishing my basic courses and starting on my major, still in the foundational stage. Slap in the face? How about a kick in the teeth. Now he lives in a mansion and I'm teaching ESL in China with my BA. On the plus side, I know exactly where I sit in sociohistorical context. That's a good thing, right? Right?

There are also degrees that give credit for life experience, but these will probably not be much better than graduating from the University of Random Internet Printable Diplomas. If you are in business that's one thing, you just need something framable, but in academia you need a fist inside your velvet glove. You need the cattle to back up your ten gallon hat. Because academics are really petty about that kind of thing. That's right! I said it!

Now teaching in the States: you could get a teaching job that allows for you to get a master's while you are working. Maybe even subsidizes. I don't know too much about it but I have seen these opportunities.

You don't have to put your life on hold while you try to reach the next plateau. You can get educated at your own pace and live your life today. You don't have to go back and squeeze inside those little desks listening to the slacker behind you whine about if today's work is on the next test, while you refrain from answering all the teacher's questions, (a teacher, who by the way, is probably a kid herself), counting the months and years to your next change.

You don't have a degree, but you are right to respect the value of your experience. Uni does give you a lot, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't give you any more initiative and efficacy than you already have. Because what they teach you in class is not as relevant as what you need for the room.

Deconstructor · Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 775 Location: Montreal

One can always teach oneself about teaching. All the books are at the local university library. This can be said about many other professions, too. An intelligent person is an intelligent person and a degree by no means guarantees that one will become a competent teacher. When it comes to getting a job, however, you will never be able to do so if, say, you've studied engineering on your own but don't have a degree. TEFL is different: the one month deals are a dime a dozen (though not that cheap) because we are under the misconception that it�s not that hard to teach.

My point is this:
If you are doing a degree only to be able to teach overseas, I think it's an unimaginable waste of time, money and energy. TEFL does not respect well educated people; the greener you are the better. There is no regulation, no standards.

Do your degree because eventually you're going to come home and look for a job in an Anglophone country.

marblez · Joined: 24 Oct 2004 Posts: 248 Location: Canada

Sure it's life, but I'm still going to let him know it!

carnac · Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:06 pm Post subject:

My for-what-it's-worth-opinion:
Get a legitimate degree from a legitimate institution. You will sleep better.
My own case: had to quit college (undergraduate) long ago due lack of funds and maturity. Went on to have many jobs, some became careers. (I deem 20 years at something as a career, so you may approximate my current age by pluralization). Burnt out at last position with 18-hour workdays, decided to go back to school and legitimize myself. (One job had been college administrator where all guessed I had at least Masters when in fact I had nothing, but I never claimed anything) Got Bachelors, asked self "What the hell can I do with this?", got accepted to Masters TESOL program. Got it. Also got heavily in debt. So what? Debt factored in, like electricity and telephone.
Going to school sharpens the mind. Going for any degree sharpens the mind. One may say that going back to school is a waste of time because of extensive prior experience, but in fact school exists for the student of whatever level who wants to learn about something, and retrains the mind in thinking. Bad teachers, bad courses? No sympathy. You can learn new things if you are serious about your own learning. Grab a mentor who will stick with you in years to come. But one can only do this in a legitimate institution of education.
How does one do this? Money and determination. For the money, you beg. Borrow. Steal. Anything. Determination? You work your tail off. For my Masters, I taught 5 hours every day, went to school another 5 hours , and knocked off at 2am for a wake-up at 6am for three years. Weekends were spent catching up on what was left behind during the week.
What do I get for it all?
A small satisfaction that I'm giving my students all that I've got, and the intellectual pleasure I get from the studies I do with my students towards an eventual (hopefully) PhD when I will become truly bored and become a plumber.
Go back to school. A real one. Get the piece of paper. You will walk taller.
IMHO as usual...
Carnac

Deconstructor · Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 775 Location: Montreal

Hey Carnac, I know where you're coming from. During the process of getting my MA, I was working at a language school every morning until 1pm; then I'd go to the library for 4 to 5 hours, then go to class until 8 or 9pm; party at the U bar until midnight to 1am and go home. I did this for 2 years. It was worth it. I've never had difficulty landing a job ever since.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

In Japan, you won't just get fired with fake credentials. You will get fined, incarcerated (without a lawyer for up to 23 days), deported (on YOUR expense), and blacklisted from returning for 5-10 years.

Get the real degree. As BambateBingBangBOOM wrote:

justcolleen · Joined: 07 Jan 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Egypt, baby!

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts so far. They ARE valuable to me.
If I've stepped on any toes, I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt, but not sorry for what I have said. I have a lot of contempt for the requirement of a bachelor's degree, considering that I already hold a LOT of experience, self-learning and a post-graduate teaching credential.
I care not a whit about the fake degree - the Chinese authorities don't seem to care. I'm not going to lose my credentials NOW - I have been awarded not only my Foreign Expert Certificate (not as big a deal as it sounds), but also a few Teaching Excellence awards. THOSE about gave me the chills - if I get just ONE of those from a federal organization (mine are local and provential), I could qualify for permanent residence.

I WOULD consider going back to the US and I'd like to have the option, but I would be lowering my standard of living, for one, and for another, I find it a little offensive that the qualifications that I have earned are not good enough - they would rather have a rookie fresh out of school, not much older or more experienced than the students as a teacher, than someone like me.
That's fine. This is why America needs teachers - because they won't hire good ones with SLIGHTLY alternative education. I mean, Trinity College, London saw fit to give me the equivelant of an MA. I'm not THAT alternative.

It really does seem to be stuck in my craw, doesn't it? :/

And I MAY go ahead with it, but only if I can do it within my budget and schedule. I will NOT go into debt for a bloody BA degree. That's just silliness. Y'all can do so if you want, and there's no denying the benefits of doing so, but I'm just not going to do it. That's lowering myself to THEIR level (that isn't y'all - it's the ubiquitous THEY).
I'm looking into Excelsior College at the moment, and Coleen, I shall PM you later this afternoon, thanks. But Big 10?? And debt? Sorry. I can't afford college right now. I spend too much on my house, my wife, my recording projects and beer - any ONE of which is worth ten times what a BA is worth to me right now.
But it WOULD be nice to just never have to worry about it anymore. So I WILL look into it. That is good advice. I agree that much.

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

I probably wouldn't even have gotten my office job in my pre-TEFL life without a BA. I majored in Peace and Conflict Studies--exactly how such a field was supposed to prepare me for making photocopies and paying invoices is beyond me, but I do accept that having a BA is a basic common denominator that shows that you have a certain degree of respect for "the system." And, like it or not, when you are working in education, you are part of one great big System.

d

TRCourage · Joined: 04 Jan 2005 Posts: 29

Have Lots of Upper Division Courses, But No Degree Yet? A Solution!

zaneth · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject:

After you finish off the degree that burning question of whether it's necessary, fair, etc. suddenly becomes a non-question, and you feel freer.

Also, it you might possibly enjoy it. Some professors are good. Some have a lot of life experience and have it combined with academic learning. Academic learning can also be access to a lot of other people's life experience. And your life experience will help you get more out of your studies, you'll be able to fit it into a framework.

Do it for the piece of paper, but enjoy it and get something personal out of it at the same time. Education isn't all bullshit.

carnac · Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:49 pm Post subject:

Sorry to burst any bubbles you or others may have about certificates, but the statement "I mean, Trinity College, London saw fit to give me the equivelant of an MA." is absurd. Let's get it straight: a certificate, however respected, is not and never will be the equivalent of a Masters, for god's sake.. A certificate is vaguely equivalent to a diploma from a 2-year Junior College, a sort of "workman's degree", and is not equivalent to a Bachelor's, let alone a Master's. The comparison is of apples and oranges. An apple is not an orange. If one has any brains, one can get a certificate with no academic qualifications at all.
So, congratulations on the certificate, because it's hard work, but let's not be too over-reaching on this piece of paper. Get more pieces of paper in subjects like psychology, grammar, linguistics, methodology. Take a class in Cultural Anthropology. If you have to ask why, stick with the certificate. There are many great natural teachers and you may well be one, but the track record needs to reflect what you have been taught (if not learned).