Job Discussion Forums

[krell]

As an experienced linguist who has learned 5 languages the hard way
I can say that if anyone complains that clerks don't understand
your "good Japanese" and this shows their racism..well
you are just dead wrong.

Clerks want to do business and those foreigners who genuinely
do speak Japanese well get served..in Japanese.. I know I do.

I have seen this in many countries in which I have taught English..
the (often self-taught) foreigner THINKS he's good at his new language
..but gets frustrated that noone understands him.

Learning a language properly is FAR more difficult than most people
realize..grow up! The fact is some foreigners will never learn to speak
Japanese intelligibly.

[spidey]

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something but...who exactly are you directing this post to?


S

[JimDunlop2]

Krell, is there a reason for this post? Are you having a bad day? This is like walking into the middle of Microsoft HQ in Redmond, and shouting, "Progammers are losers!" at the top your lungs. It's kind of an unprovoked thing to say out of the blue, n'est-ce pas?

In any event, if you're looking for a fight, fine. I'll bite. I call your five languages and raise you two. I also speak no less than three fluently, and can express myself comfortably in at least two more, which does not include the languages that I can hold down a basic conversation in.

If what you were saying held any water whatsoever, we'd be living in a utopian society. Making logical statements implies that people behave logically. They don't. I don't care how badly you want to make a sale or do business. Fact of the matter is, if you have issues with a racial group or someone you don't want to do business with, you won't. I remember the landlord of my building. I was standing on the front stoop talking with him when a man (visible minority) came up and asked how much rent was at that building. Without batting an eyelid, the landlord said, "$1200 and one month's rent damage deposit when you move in." When the man left, I asked him, "Why did you tell him $1200 when the rent's $450?" He replied, "I don't want no stinkin' <ethnic group> in THIS building." This was kind of ironic, as he was a member of a minority himself, just not a visible one...

I have certainly experienced Japanese people "play dumb" when dealing with foreigners... Your entire "You guys must be wrong because I always get served in Japanese and no one ever misunderstands ME" mentality is at best ignorant, and troll-ish at worst. You may be pronouncing something as well as ANY nihonjin, only to be met by a blank stare. I can also only base this on case studies, but I have more than just myself to use as the prime exemplar... I can confirm this phenomenon even with people who have lived here for 20 or 30 years, or foreigners who have even been born in Japan! Not to mention, if you REALLY cannot figure out what someone is saying unless their pronounciation is DEAD-on, maybe you have a learning disability or something. I once asked a store clerk for the elevator. I used the word "elevator" as a Canadian like myself might prnounce it.... She had NO CLUE what I was saying... So, I pulled out the ol' dictionary... It said that the Japanese word was... "EREBEE-TAA." Now, come on! The two aren't SO different... I've heard people mangle and abuse French words and phrases to the point of being incomprehensible... I've listened to people "test out" their Czech on me and I had to cringe in my mind how bad it was.... Nevertheless, though it may have taken me a bit longer... but I DID figure it out. Are you trying to imply that Japanese people lack basic deductive and reasoning skills?

If you don't think this kind of racism exists, please visit Debito Arudo's website.... If you want some GREAT examples of Japanese businesses turning away clients due to race... It's rife with examples! Here ya go: http://www.debito.org If you think that he and others need to GROW UP after reading his site, come back and explain why. Until then, being someone with only 11 or so posts to their name is not going to make many friends with poisonned posts like this.

[Celeste]

My personal favourite example of wierdness in Japanese shops comes when I ask the price of something (in Japanese) and the price is typed into a calculator for me! Obviously they have understood what I have said, but they won't speak to me in reply!

I have also had clerks desperately ignore me when I go to the cashier's desk to pay for something. Result: I left the merchandise on the desk and left the store without making a purchase. The ones who don't get paid much and aren't very smart couldn't care less about making a sale and have a lot of stereotypes in their heads about what will happen if they interact with a non-Japanese customer.

This happens less in high end stores or owner operated stores. In such places they actually care about thier clientele.

What make s you think that people who are misunderstood are self-taught? Many people take Japanese classes from reputable schools with trained teachers.

[Nismo]

Actually, I watched a comedy sketch about this very topic on a variety show in Japan. What the hosts did was they had a very fluent (in Japanese) blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy phone a shop and speak in Japanese. The clerk understood the conversation perfectly and was never able to detect he was speaking with a foreigner. Then, with hidden cameras, they sent the foreign guy into the shop in person and started trying to ask the same clerk questions, and the clerk shut off and started responding that he didn't understand what the guy was saying.

It was a pretty good situational sketch, and the unofficial conclusion of the show was that the clerk began to "listen with his eyes" (he shut off anything the guy was saying and was stuck at seeing a foreign face).

To be fair to the original poster, I have heard some very crappy accents coming from people who claim to speak nearly perfect Japanese. But more often I see people speaking nearly perfect Japanese but are not getting through with clerks, for some reason.

[Mark]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I've never had any problems with store clerks. That's probably because I live in central Tokyo and people here are more used to dealing with foreigners. But, anyway, no problems to report.

And, although the OP's comments did come out of nowhere, there is some validity to them. I had a friend come to visit and because I had to work, he was on his own for some of the time he was here. He learned a couple phrases and brought a phrase book with him, but was very upset to find out that he couldn't communicate with people. His pronunciation was so bad that I honestly couldn't understand what he was saying when he tried a phrase out on me.

I think that, in general, we English speakers have relatively low standards of what it means to speak a language. I've met many people who claim to speak a language, only to find out that they have only a very basic knowledge of that knowledge. It all depends on how you define "speaking" a language. My friend was under the impression that he spoke a little Japanese, for example.

There's also the fact that Japanese people usually have very limited experience talking to language-learners. Back in my home country, not a day went by that I didn't speak to a language-learner. If you're experiencing your first conversation with a non-native speaker, I can understand that Japanese people might find it difficult.

[Captain Onigiri]

It doesn't even have to be a different language. I will never forget my first trip to England and standing at the ticket window at Gatwick and having NO idea what the clerk was saying to me. The person behind me finally had to whisper in my ear that she wanted five pounds. It was like being dropped into the middle of a sketch on the Benny Hill Show. I still don't understand half of what's said on The Benny Hill Show. It was the same trip that some nice little old lady told me I sounded like Jed Clampett. Being 18, I would have died on the spot but she went on to say she really liked that programme, "er... Malibu Hillbillies, I think it was". That was hilarious.
Every experience is an opportunity for learning. All of you (I can't include myself because I haven't been to Japan yet) who have expericed this can come away with a greater insight on what it's like to be African-American in the US or insert whatever ethnic minority in whatever country. I think one of the hardest things about being a minority is never knowing whether someone being an @sshole is doing so because a) they're having a horrible day, b) you unknowingly committed some faux pas, or c) they just hate you because of who you are. It's an insight that you can take with you for the rest of your life.
The other idea I have about this is less positive and I base this only on the small amount of travel overseas I've done. While you went into the shop and spoke pretty good Nihongo, it's quite possible that the last five English-speaking people the clerk had to deal with were lazy American tourists who didn't bother to learn a single word of Japanese because "they all speak English over there" and carried themselves about like they were the Vice-Roy of India. Unfortunately, you are probably reaping what your predecessors have sown.

[edited because of your/you're problems]

[krell]

Jim Dunlop2 ;

I stand by what I said;
Notice I did NOT say there was no racism in Japan

As to your "elevator" example, sorry but
your pronounciation probably had stress in it which is a no-no
It is YOUR predujice that is being revealed by that example.
It is no different than listening to a Japanse beginner
in English complain that the stupid Gajin don't
understand their "perfect" pronounciation(and I know
this happens too)

As an experinced linguist I know which errors of
pronounciation are forgivable and which are
not.. Also there is no "DEAD ON" pronounciation strictly
speaking cause of dialect.

Thanks for letting me vent; I guess I got fed up with foreigners
complaints and for the record I used to have the same
problems and feeling when I was a beginner . Know that
I am at an advanced stage I know it was MOSTLY me(of
COURSE the odd racist pulls the "I dont know act" but that
is the exception). I also know now that it takes MANY YEARS for the
AVERAGE person from the west to get reasonably good
at any Asian language.

[johanne]

I think a lot of it depends where you are. When I lived in Okayama and Kanazawa no one seemed to understand me, but when I moved to Yokohama, with no noticable inprovement in my Japanese, more often than not people did understand me. My husband has experienced the same thing in reverse. In Vancouver, he is quite easily understood as the city is full of ESL speakers with a wide variety of accents, but when we went to Florida, to visit my Grandmother and he ordered a hot dog from a fast food stand with a menu of 5 items, two differenct clerks didn't understand him and looked at me to help them out.

[Akula the shark]

The originator of this post does have a point in that some people do think that they speak a language better than they actually do.
I have taught a lot of students who thought that they spoke English better than they did, and were resentful when I uncovered hitherto unknown gaps in their English. It's a universal problem really.

The next issue is that a lot of Japanese feel bad when you speak their language better than they speak yours. I have encountered this time and time again (I just passed level 1 of the Japanese language proficiency test). A lot of Japanese would much rather deal with the fresh off the plane eikaiwa teacher who has little knowledge of Japan and Japanese than someone who actually does, particularly if they have an interest in English. On the other hand, Japanese who are not at all interested in English (the vast majority of the population) are far happier to deal with someone like me.
For the record it took me four years to go from zero to ikkyu level, and it took me hundreds upon hundreds of hours of effort.

[Bozo Yoroshiku]

[shuize]

Although it certainly can cut both ways, I think more times than not the OP's point is valid. Many people think they can speak the language better than they do.

It is also situational. Someone who's Japanese is not quite as good as they think may walk into a situation where it is obvious to them what they want and believe they are making themselves understood. It may even be that in a different situation their language is understandable but in that particular context it is very difficult for the listener to understand.

As with the American tourist in England example, I had a number of similar experiences when I was in the southern United States. One time when I was walking down the street a guy walked up and started talking to me. I gathered the words "car" and "right?" Okay, language pros, what was he saying?

I debated shrugging my shoulders and walking away. But after several attempts, I think he was asking if I knew whether it was legal to park there. Totally out of context for what I would have expected someone on foot to ask me. If you walk into a convenience store and start asking for "elevators", don't be surprized if the clerks get confused even if you're speaking passable Japanese.

Now having said that, I've also had my share of experiences in fast-food restaurants when the staff froze up on me even after placing the order in Japanese while pointing at the picture menu item I wanted.

[Bozo Yoroshiku]

[JZer]

shuize,

[Sherri]

I'll never forget a situation I witnessed in a hospital in central Tokyo. I was waiting at the reception when a middle-aged, non-Japanese man (I think American) was trying to sort out his insurance. He spoke Japanese very fluently. When I saw him he was tearing a strip off a nurse who had told him he had to pay up front. She then put him onto someone else on the in-house phone and he shouted another couple of minutes at whoever was on the other end. The admin then brought out someone else to explain their policy and he proceded to shout at her. I wondered, how could someone become so proficient at the mechanics of Japanese but be so utterly useless at communication in Japanese? He really didn't get it. When I left he was still hitting a brick wall.
Sherri